From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 5 03:53:53 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cm2DN-0005IT-F6-0005Io."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:53:53 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cm2DN-0005IT-F6; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:52:06 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cm2DN-0005IT-F6; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:52:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cm2DN-0000iH-EL; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:52:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cm2D5-00066m-3d; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:51:47 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j053pTB21974 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:51:29 GMT Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j053pT721970 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:51:29 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Cm2Bk-0006nO-J5 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:50:25 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:49:49 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro Windows - documentation MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Hi, Documentation for the Windows version of Ovation Pro is now available from http://www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opwdoc.html A few weeks ago there was some discussion of the unlikely event of someone who had never used RISC OS using Ovation on Windows. One thing which prevented that from happening was the complete lack of documentation for the program. So I've rushed out documentation. This has got to be an improvement. I've no doubt there are some errors, lengthy discussions about using the program on machines with 2MB of RAM, or clicking on the icon bar icon with Adjust... but this documentation does explain the new mouse clicks and key presses. I'd guess that the reference card will be enough for many people. The manual as one big PDF has the advantage that it can be searched. You'll find that the documentation files live on a different web site. This is my new big area of web space and nothing to worry about. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 5 13:50:36 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cm2Fk-0000ci-Of-0000dE."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:50:36 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cm2Fk-0000ci-Of; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:54:33 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cm2Fk-0000ci-Of; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:54:32 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cm2Fk-0000xn-Cw; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:54:32 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cm2FV-00049c-0B; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:54:17 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j053sBJ22374 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:54:11 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j053sBF22369 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:54:11 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Cm2FO-000N5k-9D for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 03:54:11 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 03:52:31 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] sprites refuse to import References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >hm. fraid so. i have dug out old PlingScan 1.18, after doing >"quit all" on ImageFS. dropped the problem JPeg into 1.18 and One thing you can do is load the problem sprites into DPScan and see what the Info feature (File menu) tells you about the sprite files created (compare with the same info for the ones from 1.18). -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 5 13:50:38 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cm5zK-0004Da-EF-0004ED."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 13:50:38 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cm5zK-0004Da-EF; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 07:53:51 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cm5zK-0004Da-EF; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 07:53:50 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cm5zK-00010W-7u; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 07:53:50 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cm5yx-0005lk-Uj; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 07:53:27 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j057r8l30050 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:53:08 GMT Received: from smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.4]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j057r7930047 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:53:07 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from BRUCEA6 ([82.44.100.114]) by smtp-out1.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:53:39 +0000 Message-ID: <001901c4f2fb$9d478680$8100a8c0@BRUCEA6> From: "Bruce Goatly" To: References: Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro Windows - documentation Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 07:53:15 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1441 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Jan 2005 07:53:39.0499 (UTC) FILETIME=[AB20E7B0:01C4F2FB] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) David Pilling wrote: > Documentation for the Windows version of Ovation Pro is now available > from > > http://www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opwdoc.html I'm afraid that at least one of the links is broken, and more than one points to the reference card... I picked up the manual eventually by changing the refcard.pdf URL manually (!) to manual.pdf; thanks for naming files logically! Bruce -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 5 14:10:32 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CmBov-0003Ta-HE-0003Vz."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:10:32 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CmBov-0003Ta-HE; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:07:31 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CmBov-0003Ta-HE; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:07:29 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CmBov-00057D-1L; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:07:29 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CmBoa-0005dJ-QW; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:07:08 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j05E6jj16475 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:06:45 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j05E6i316466 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:06:44 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CmBoB-000Lpd-1m for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 14:06:43 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 14:05:21 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro Windows - documentation References: <001901c4f2fb$9d478680$8100a8c0@BRUCEA6> In-Reply-To: <001901c4f2fb$9d478680$8100a8c0@BRUCEA6> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >> Documentation for the Windows version of Ovation Pro is now available >> from >> http://www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opwdoc.html >I'm afraid that at least one of the links is broken, and more than one Thanks, sorry, fixed. For the record the link to the complete manual pointed to the reference card, and the two tutorial files were missing. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 5 17:30:42 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CmEy6-0000ie-3a-0000jK."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:30:42 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CmEy6-0000ie-3a; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:29:10 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CmEy6-0000ie-3a; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:29:10 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CmEy5-000245-UT; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:29:10 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CmEx4-0006qO-6U; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:28:06 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j05HRsL27153 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:27:54 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j05HRrB27144 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:27:53 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CmEwq-0008Jl-Ef for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 17:27:52 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 5 Jan 2005 17:26:16 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] CMYK printing expert needed References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >I'm sure some people will have got CMYK copy origination sorted out. >Anyway drop me a private email. Thanks to everyone who replied, I've now found someone who works in the same way as Paul Beverley. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 5 18:30:45 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CmFoa-0001Wi-P9-0001XM."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:30:45 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CmFoa-0001Wi-P9; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:23:25 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CmFoa-0001Wi-P9; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:23:24 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CmFoa-0000wc-KT; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:23:24 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CmFoE-0002fO-LQ; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:23:02 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j05IMJk09420 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:22:19 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j05IMI609417 for ; Wed, 5 Jan 2005 18:22:18 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from dougal.locationworks.com ([62.49.148.34] helo=localhost) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CmFnV-0007VN-2P for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:22:18 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Kell Gatherer To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Wed, 05 Jan 2005 18:19:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] CMYK printing expert needed Message-ID: <4d289c0164lists@locsource.com> In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Pluto/2.03c (RISC-OS/4.02) POPstar/2.03 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article , David Pilling wrote: > >I'm sure some people will have got CMYK copy origination sorted out. > >Anyway drop me a private email. > Thanks to everyone who replied, I've now found someone who works in the > same way as Paul Beverley. This is a topic I sorely need to understand. Is it possible we could share this knowledge? -- Kell Gatherer kell@locsource.com is a SPAM TRAP: use kell at location hyphen works dot com www.locationworks.com -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 6 23:51:25 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CmhNV-0000c0-5i-0000cO."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:51:25 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CmhNV-0000c0-5i; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:49:18 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CmhNV-0000c0-5i; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:49:17 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CmhNV-0007Xd-IO; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:49:17 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CmhNA-0008Sz-Ef; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:48:56 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j06NmOV03426 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:48:24 GMT Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j06NmNM03420 for ; Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:48:23 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CmhMd-000N1P-9l for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 06 Jan 2005 23:48:23 +0000 Message-ID: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 6 Jan 2005 23:46:47 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Hi, A couple of weeks ago someone asked if it would ever be possible to load PDF's into Ovation Pro. Now the context is loading PDF's as pictures - although there is software around that will let you load a PDF into MS Word as editable text that is quite a big project. So with this limitation, I've done a web page that explains how to do this; http://www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/transpdf.html You'll also need the latest version of Ovation Pro for Windows; http://www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opw.html I think it may be best to point out that this is not a project for novices. It involves handling command line programs. The way it works is to use GhostScript (or any other PS interpreter you may have) to turn the PDF into an EPS file with preview. I'll be interested to hear if this is useful. The same technique could be used with OP on RISC OS, but I'm reluctant to expend the effort if the results are not good enough. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 7 16:11:05 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cmwc4-0002ih-Sc-0002js."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:11:05 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cmwc4-0002ih-Sc; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:05:22 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cmwc4-0002ih-Sc; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:05:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cmwc4-0000zL-Hr; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:05:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CmwbW-0007H5-H2; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:04:46 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j07G3rr11138 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:03:53 GMT Received: from smtpq2.home.nl ([213.51.128.197]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j07G3nE11084 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:03:50 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.51.128.133] (port=58159 helo=smtp2.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CmwaG-0008CB-Ke for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:03:28 +0100 Received: from cp418204-a.dbsch1.nb.home.nl ([84.27.69.179]:55318 helo=padua) by smtp2.home.nl with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CmwaF-0004ui-Eh for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 17:03:27 +0100 Message-ID: <000701c4f4d2$70f461b0$6502a8c0@padua> From: "Tonnie Demarteau" To: References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 17:03:26 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Hi David On Friday, January 07, 2005 12:46 AM , David Pilling wrote: > Hi, > > A couple of weeks ago someone asked if it would ever be possible to > load PDF's into Ovation Pro. > > Now the context is loading PDF's as pictures - although there is > software around that will let you load a PDF into MS Word as editable > text that is quite a big project. > > So with this limitation, I've done a web page that explains how to do > this; > > http://www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/transpdf.html > > You'll also need the latest version of Ovation Pro for Windows; > > http://www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opw.html > > I think it may be best to point out that this is not a project for > novices. It involves handling command line programs. > Downloaded and installed without a problem. My GS has another path, so I changed the line in the text file. It does work, as long as I drop the pdf in a new frame. > The way it works is to use GhostScript (or any other PS interpreter > you may have) to turn the PDF into an EPS file with preview. What other programs do you mean? > I'll be interested to hear if this is useful. The same technique could > be used with OP on RISC OS, but I'm reluctant to expend the effort if > the results are not good enough. I can see that the dpi for the bitmap can be changed in the little textfile. The default is very low. Certainly when there is some text in the pdf. Windows default (also in DPscan) is 96 dpi. It would be nice to be able to set the dpi for each pdf before loading in the frame. A bit like can be done in 'proxy'. Transpdf only converts the first page of a pdf. I can understand, that only ONE page at the time is loaded in one frame. A choice of 'which' page would be useful. This would mean another page or a second, third and so on in other frames. Thanks, it is good to see that it can be done! Tonnie -- Mrs Tonnie Demarteau - the Netherlands -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 7 16:31:06 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cmx0h-0006m5-Qa-0006oo."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:31:06 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cmx0h-0006m5-Qa; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:30:48 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cmx0h-0006m5-Qa; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:30:47 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cmx0h-0006LM-1A; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:30:47 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cmx0H-0000QW-EB; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:30:21 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j07GUAC19275 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:30:10 GMT Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j07GUA519271 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:30:10 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CmwzK-000IVv-3s for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 16:29:22 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 16:28:54 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> <000701c4f4d2$70f461b0$6502a8c0@padua> In-Reply-To: <000701c4f4d2$70f461b0$6502a8c0@padua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >Downloaded and installed without a problem. >My GS has another path, so I changed the line in the text file. >It does work, as long as I drop the pdf in a new frame. Actually the version on the web site has a shortcoming fixed, so that you can drop a file that is going to be translated by the filters into text and it will be embedded. >> The way it works is to use GhostScript (or any other PS interpreter >> you may have) to turn the PDF into an EPS file with preview. >What other programs do you mean? The hypothetical ones my lawyers told me to mention in case it looks like my program is now dependent upon GhostScript. >I can see that the dpi for the bitmap can be changed in the little textfile. >The default is very low. Certainly when there is some text in the pdf. >Windows default (also in DPscan) is 96 dpi. I was worried by how large the preview part of the EPS is. One worry I had is that any PDF was going to end up A4 size - big in other words. I've no idea if the PDF files people want to use in OP are smaller. Potentially you might change the sort of preview that is generated. This can be done from the command line arguments that are passed on by the filter. In general though it would be better if OPW recreated the preview on the fly to match the screen resolution. >A choice of 'which' page would be useful. >This would mean another page or a second, third and so on in other frames. Again you can do this by twiddling the parameters passed on to your PS interpreter. I agree a better user interface would help, but of course it would also look more like OPW depends upon GhostScript. The downside of making something difficult to use, is that people just don't use it, and it gets written off as a bad idea. I've not found a really good way to locate GhostScript, which is why there has to be some command line hacking. Yes GSView manages it, but I've not found a way that doesn't involve messing about. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 7 23:01:26 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cn319-0005xx-N8-00062G."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:01:26 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cn319-0005xx-N8; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 22:55:40 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cn319-0005xx-N8; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 22:55:39 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cn318-0005IY-Vv; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 22:55:39 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cn30k-0007s1-PM; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 22:55:14 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j07Mss118595 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:54:54 GMT Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j07MssE18592 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:54:54 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Cn2zd-000Hp4-56 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 22:54:05 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 22:53:39 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Printing Oddity References: <4D4MMGEHgt2BFwYq@pilling.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4D4MMGEHgt2BFwYq@pilling.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >>From: charles hope >I get an error message "OvPro has gone wrong" and when I ask for a >description I get the mesage "Sprite Extend can only do linear >transformations". I guess I'd ask if you get the same error using a standard printer driver e.g. PostScript or bitmap (Sprinter off my web site would do, or ArcFax). I have dim memories of seeing this error occasionally, but nothing I'd want to admit to as my problem. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 7 23:21:25 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cn3If-00006B-RS-00006h."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:21:25 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cn3If-00006B-RS; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:13:46 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cn3If-00006B-RS; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:13:45 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cn3If-0006Ra-Am; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:13:45 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cn3ID-0005b2-SE; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:13:17 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j07ND8923240 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:13:08 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j07ND8M23235 for ; Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:13:08 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Cn3I3-000FdL-8O for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Fri, 07 Jan 2005 23:13:07 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2005 23:12:06 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Hi, On Friday afternoon, someone pointed out to me that if you use the Edit Style... window and create or already have defined a style with underlining turned on the program crashes. That seems pretty bad to me - trivial operation causes loss of document. I've uploaded a fixed version (8th January 2005) to; http://www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opw.html I appreciate you don't like new versions of programs coming out every 24 hours. The bug has been present for around a year, so judge for yourself if it is worthwhile. The same web page has a new set of filters, the TIFF filter fixes a small problem with some images - probably the interest is that they're the ones Xara uses in EPS files for previews. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 01:51:32 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cn5ej-0006NX-Fr-0006PE."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:51:32 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cn5ej-0006NX-Fr; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:44:42 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cn5ej-0006NX-Fr; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:44:41 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cn5ej-0007g8-OH; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:44:41 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cn5eI-0005RM-Ms; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:44:14 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j081hud20266 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:43:56 GMT Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j081huf20263 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 01:43:56 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Cn5dz-000J9i-Bw for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:43:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 01:45:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 07 Jan, David Pilling wrote: > On Friday afternoon, someone pointed out to me that if you use the Edit > Style... window and create or already have defined a style with > underlining turned on the program crashes. Intelligent program? Underlining is always bad practice... ;-) -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 13:50:03 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cn9wF-0003cd-Gb-0003di."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:50:03 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cn9wF-0003cd-Gb; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 06:19:05 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cn9wF-0003cd-Gb; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 06:19:03 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cn9wE-000314-Ve; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 06:19:03 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cn9vw-0003x8-IB; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 06:18:44 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j086IPF03454 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 06:18:25 GMT Received: from mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com (mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com [212.74.114.39]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j086IOM03450 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 06:18:24 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from dsl-80-41-160-58.access.uk.tiscali.com ([80.41.160.58]:10085 helo=dave) by mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cn9vb-000FrA-Uf for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 06:18:24 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dave Symes To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 06:18:19 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> In-Reply-To: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.39) POPstar/2.05 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell wrote: > Underlining is always bad practice... ;-) Why is that John? Dave S -- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 13:50:06 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnBMk-0005ac-DV-00064E."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:50:06 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnBMk-0005ac-DV; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 11:59:01 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnBMk-0005ac-DV; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:50:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnBMj-0001lP-QR; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:50:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnBMP-0005wr-6y; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:50:09 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j087nsQ20177 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 07:49:54 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j087nrZ20173 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 07:49:53 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from south-frm.demon.co.uk ([80.177.26.219] helo=greatest) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnBM8-000Mui-7c for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:49:52 +0000 Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 07:48:13 GMT From: Tim Powys-Lybbe To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> In-Reply-To: <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> X-Organization: South Farm, Calstone, Calne, Wilts, England (no house here!) User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/3.03b4 (MsgServe/2.16) (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.06-ds.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message of 8 Jan, Dave Symes wrote: > In article <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, > John Cartmell wrote: > > > Underlining is always bad practice... ;-) > > Why is that John? If I may interject, the standard examples of written communication practices are newspapers. Their line of business is precisely that of communicating and encouraging their punters to read and buy again. So have a good look at the various papers and ask yourself what they are doing and what audiences they are aiming at. That said, a few years back they did not use underlining. Now I see the odd headline, only, with an underline to it. Perhaps the fashion is changing? Or perhaps they are trying to appeal to the punters whose dreadful habit is that of continuous underlining? Moving on from that, one of the more interesting studies is that of legibility. If you can make a font more legible, then you can make it smaller and get more news per page, or use fewer pages for the same amount of news, thus saving a few bob. My understanding is that fonts are more legible if they have lots of different shapes. This is why people use lower case for small print as the ascenders and descenders extend the number of different and recognisable shapes. If you then put an underline on the same text, you reduce the shape variety and probably have to increase the font size to retain legibility, thus increasing printing costs. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 13:50:07 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnG8O-00063V-9A-000656."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:50:07 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnG8O-00063V-9A; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:56:03 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnG8O-00063V-9A; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:56:00 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnG8O-0001hc-KM; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:56:00 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnG84-0004AB-Vf; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:55:40 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j08CtK613316 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:55:20 GMT Received: from relay.freeuk.net (relay.freeuk.net [212.126.144.54]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j08CtJw13309 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 12:55:20 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from du-003-0032.freeuk.com ([212.126.145.32] helo=helvellyn) by relay.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1CnG7d-000G1L-7R for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:55:19 +0000 Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:09:35 GMT From: Steve Fryatt To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> In-Reply-To: X-Organization: Home User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/3.03b4 (MsgServe/2.16) (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 X-Editor: Zap 1.46 (19 Oct 2004) [TEST], ZapEmail 0.27 (21 Mar 2003) test-6 (32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 8 Jan, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote in message : > In message of 8 Jan, Dave Symes wrote: > > > In article <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, > > John Cartmell wrote: > > > > > Underlining is always bad practice... ;-) > > > > Why is that John? > > If I may interject, the standard examples of written communication > practices are newspapers. Their line of business is precisely that of > communicating and encouraging their punters to read and buy again. So > have a good look at the various papers and ask yourself what they are > doing and what audiences they are aiming at. > > That said, a few years back they did not use underlining. Now I see the > odd headline, only, with an underline to it. Perhaps the fashion is > changing? Or perhaps they are trying to appeal to the punters whose > dreadful habit is that of continuous underlining? > > Moving on from that, one of the more interesting studies is that of > legibility. If you can make a font more legible, then you can make it > smaller and get more news per page, or use fewer pages for the same > amount of news, thus saving a few bob. My understanding is that fonts > are more legible if they have lots of different shapes. This is why > people use lower case for small print as the ascenders and descenders > extend the number of different and recognisable shapes. If you then > put an underline on the same text, you reduce the shape variety and > probably have to increase the font size to retain legibility, thus > increasing printing costs. Sure, but that's newspapers. John was asserting that unerlining was "always" bad practice, which I don't agree with. It may be the case in 'flashy' DTP based work, but for 'dull' things like reports, minutes, letters and so on, where the type size is usually larger, underlining still has an important role IMO. -- Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/ -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 13:50:07 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnGV5-0004eY-4u-0001KA."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:50:07 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnGV5-0004eY-4u; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:27:05 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnGV5-0004eY-4u; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:19:27 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnGIP-0003Iv-31; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:06:21 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnGIC-0004JA-QN; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:06:08 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j08D66b19234 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:06:06 GMT Received: from ns.realpoint.co.uk (ns.realpoint.co.uk [217.199.169.16]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j08D65319230 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:06:06 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from SONYLAPTOP ([62.105.89.190]) by ns.realpoint.co.uk (8.10.2/8.10.2) with ESMTP id j08DBFt18344 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:11:15 GMT Message-Id: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> From: "Ian" To: Subject: RE: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:05:36 -0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Thread-Index: AcT1gkhB/ECD50D5TbO+IZOQsmBw/AAAH0BQ Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_10,FORGED_MUA_OUTLOOK,IN_REP_TO, MISSING_OUTLOOK_NAME,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) > Sure, but that's newspapers. John was asserting that > unerlining was "always" bad practice, which I don't agree > with. It may be the case in 'flashy' DTP based work, but for > 'dull' things like reports, minutes, letters and so on, where > the type size is usually larger, underlining still has an > important role IMO. > If I may interject as a designer, it is always considered bad practice in the design world, mainly for the reason already mentioned of reducing typeface legibility by cutting through descenders and confusing the eye by having a line two close to the bottom the letter forms which alters their shape to the eye. Better options to emphasise headers etc. include: Different typefaces and sizes for headers, often sans-serif for headers with serif for body copy. Different sizes of typeface can indicate different header levels. Reversed out headers from a colour or black. Underlining which happens beneath the bottom of the descenders and normally extends well beyond the edge of the words so it is a graphical element in its own right and therefore does not conflict with the typeface forms. In all our proposals we use Verdana throughout, with double underlining spaced beneath the descenders for main section headings, and then bold weight in larger sizes than body copy for sub headings of various levels. Hope this helps someone! Ian _ _ _ _ |_|_|_|_| Post: Concorde House, Trinity Park, Solihull B37 7UQ |_|_|_|_| Phone: 0121 635 5020 |_|_|_|_| Email: ian@realpoint.co.uk |_|_|_|_| Web: http://www.realpoint.co.uk Real Point -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 13:50:08 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnGV5-0004jU-IK-0003YH."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:50:08 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnGV5-0004jU-IK; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:42:33 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnGV5-0004jU-IK; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:19:27 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnGIO-0003Ir-UR; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:06:21 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnGI7-0005Y5-DG; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:06:03 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j08D60W19192 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:06:00 GMT Received: from ranger.systems.pipex.net (ranger.systems.pipex.net [62.241.162.32]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j08D60b19173 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:06:00 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from RiscPC (81-178-202-151.dsl.pipex.com [81.178.202.151]) by ranger.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id BABDFE0002E1 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:05:59 +0000 (GMT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Steven Pampling To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 12:49:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2a095d0csteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> In-Reply-To: <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> User-Agent: Pluto/2.05-a1 (RISC-OS/4.02) POPstar/2.04-pre2 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 08 Jan, Dave Symes wrote: > In article <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, > John Cartmell wrote: > > Underlining is always bad practice... ;-) > Why is that John? As Tim has pointed out it reduces legibility on most blocks of text. The origin of underline for emphasis is the marking up of copy for printing and it's introduction into typewriters which had something of a difficult time magically producing bold or italic from the same limited set of hammers. The introduction of electronic word processing and easy availability of multiple fonts and effects pretty much negates any conceivable use for the underline. Even HTML has other effects that can be used to mark a link other than an underline. Perhaps DP had sub-consciously introduced an intelligence test. :-) > Dave S -- Steve Pampling -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 14:29:32 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnGVV-0007h4-BA-0002IX."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 14:29:32 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnGVV-0007h4-BA; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 14:26:54 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnGVV-0007h4-BA; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:19:53 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnGHz-0007nI-IK; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:05:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnGHg-0003zw-Rz; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:05:36 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j08D5So18984 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:05:28 GMT Received: from smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.6]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j08D5Sg18975 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:05:28 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from Iyonix ([82.34.56.52]) by smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Sat, 8 Jan 2005 13:05:59 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John M Ward To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 13:07:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2a0b0671john@acornusers.org> In-Reply-To: References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 Content-Type: text/plain X-OriginalArrivalTime: 08 Jan 2005 13:05:59.0918 (UTC) FILETIME=[CC8728E0:01C4F582] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article , Steve Fryatt wrote: > On 8 Jan, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote in message > : > > My understanding is that fonts are more legible if they have lots > > of different shapes. This is why people use lower case for small > > print as the ascenders and descenders extend the number of > > different and recognisable shapes. Indeed: it is much easier to recognise the letters from their much more variant shapes than upper case letters. > > If you then put an underline on the same text, you reduce the > > shape variety and probably have to increase the font size to > > retain legibility, thus increasing printing costs. > Sure, but that's newspapers. John was asserting that unerlining > was "always" bad practice, which I don't agree with. It may be the > case in 'flashy' DTP based work, but for 'dull' things like > reports, minutes, letters and so on, where the type size is usually > larger, underlining still has an important role IMO. Not really. Underlining comes from the days when we didn't have the options that exist today, such as italics, bold, colour and font size/aspect. Underlining crosses through descenders, so cannot be used successfully with lower case lettering unless you are very lucky not to have any descenders in the text involved. Although I once had a valid use for very limited underlining (one word!) it was very much the exception, and I'd always avoid it wherever possible, which is near enough always. -- John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered! Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 15:19:35 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnIGt-0005X3-E7-0005Ys."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:19:35 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnIGt-0005X3-E7; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:12:56 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnIGt-0005X3-E7; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:12:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnIGt-00052G-5k; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:12:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnIGd-0002S0-C6; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:12:39 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j08FCRM14648 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:12:27 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j08FCQf14645 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:12:26 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnIGQ-000Fxb-DC for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:12:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:12:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2a1664f3john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 08 Jan, Dave Symes wrote: > In article <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, > John Cartmell wrote: > > Underlining is always bad practice... ;-) > Why is that John? If you are using a well-designed font then why are you committing the sacrilege of cutting through those carefully balanced descenders? There are always better ways of emphasising text using DTP and, should you need a form of underlining, then using rules (lines completely below the letter shapes) is a much better option. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 15:19:36 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnILj-0007Fz-72-0007J3."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:19:36 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnILj-0007Fz-72; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:17:56 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnILj-0007Fz-72; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:17:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnILi-0001us-VP; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:17:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnILO-0003ql-Nn; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:17:34 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j08FHRc15389 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:17:27 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j08FHRE15386 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 15:17:27 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnILG-000GWR-EI for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:17:26 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 15:14:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 08 Jan, Steve Fryatt wrote: > On 8 Jan, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote in message > : > > In message of 8 Jan, Dave Symes wrote: > > > > > In article <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell > > > wrote: > > > > > > > Underlining is always bad practice... ;-) > > > > > > Why is that John? > > > > If I may interject, the standard examples of written communication > > practices are newspapers. Their line of business is precisely that of > > communicating and encouraging their punters to read and buy again. So > > have a good look at the various papers and ask yourself what they are > > doing and what audiences they are aiming at. > > > > That said, a few years back they did not use underlining. Now I see > > the odd headline, only, with an underline to it. Perhaps the fashion > > is changing? Or perhaps they are trying to appeal to the punters > > whose dreadful habit is that of continuous underlining? > > > > Moving on from that, one of the more interesting studies is that of > > legibility. If you can make a font more legible, then you can make it > > smaller and get more news per page, or use fewer pages for the same > > amount of news, thus saving a few bob. My understanding is that fonts > > are more legible if they have lots of different shapes. This is why > > people use lower case for small print as the ascenders and descenders > > extend the number of different and recognisable shapes. If you then > > put an underline on the same text, you reduce the shape variety and > > probably have to increase the font size to retain legibility, thus > > increasing printing costs. > Sure, but that's newspapers. John was asserting that unerlining was > "always" bad practice, which I don't agree with. It may be the case in > 'flashy' DTP based work, but for 'dull' things like reports, minutes, > letters and so on, where the type size is usually larger, underlining > still has an important role IMO. Underlining is permissible when using a typewriter and your choice of emphasis is severely limited. That's not the case with the excellent Ovation Pro to hand - even when producing 'dull' reports. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 19:39:46 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnMOT-0007eZ-Po-0007f4."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:39:46 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnMOT-0007eZ-Po; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:37:01 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnMOT-0007eZ-Po; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:37:01 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnMOS-0002TA-QI; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:37:00 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnMOB-0002PD-HQ; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:36:43 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j08JaKC08006 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:36:20 GMT Received: from smtp.argonet.co.uk (centipede.freedom2.net [213.161.67.201]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j08JaKc08001 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 19:36:20 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [62.188.139.159] (helo=62.188.139.159) by smtp.argonet.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CnMMb-0002hT-CC for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:35:05 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Graeme Walker To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 19:34:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2a2e66c2graeme.walker@argonet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Pluto/3.03e (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) As an aside, I have had lots of problems with OCR when text is underlined. It seemed to produce all sorts of strange characters. Graeme On 07 Jan, David Pilling wrote: > Hi, > On Friday afternoon, someone pointed out to me that if you use the Edit > Style... window and create or already have defined a style with > underlining turned on the program crashes. > That seems pretty bad to me - trivial operation causes loss of document. > I've uploaded a fixed version (8th January 2005) to; > http://www.davidpilling.net/ovationpro/opw.html > I appreciate you don't like new versions of programs coming out every 24 > hours. > The bug has been present for around a year, so judge for yourself if it > is worthwhile. > The same web page has a new set of filters, the TIFF filter fixes a > small problem with some images - probably the interest is that they're > the ones Xara uses in EPS files for previews. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 20:29:48 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnNBP-00039A-OS-00039Y."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:29:48 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnNBP-00039A-OS; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:27:36 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnNBP-00039A-OS; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:27:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnNBP-0001TB-Du; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:27:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnNB8-00063X-HT; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:27:18 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j08KR6W16581 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:27:06 GMT Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j08KR6i16568 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 20:27:06 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from charleshope.demon.co.uk ([80.177.174.79] helo=bk21) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnNA8-0004gv-6N for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:26:17 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "charles.hope" To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sat, 08 Jan 2005 20:13:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Printing Oddity Message-ID: <4d2a3205d9charles.hope@argonet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <4D4MMGEHgt2BFwYq@pilling.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.02f (RISC-OS/4.39) POPstar/2.05 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article , David Pilling wrote: > >>From: charles hope > >I get an error message "OvPro has gone wrong" and when I ask for a > >description I get the mesage "Sprite Extend can only do linear > >transformations". > I guess I'd ask if you get the same error using a standard printer > driver e.g. PostScript or bitmap (Sprinter off my web site would do, or > ArcFax). The fault did occur with a standard driver "HPLaserJet 6". It was GimpPrint that had no problems. However, I've tried using SPrint and Postscript 2 drivers and had no problem. Incidentally although the problem first happened on my Iyonix, I got exactly the same fault on the RISCPC - running Adjust. > I have dim memories of seeing this error occasionally, but nothing I'd > want to admit to as my problem. but the fault says it's an OvPro one ;) -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sat Jan 8 22:19:54 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnOud-0005Vw-Cj-0005YB."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:19:54 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnOud-0005Vw-Cj; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:18:25 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnOud-0005Vw-Cj; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:18:23 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnOud-00030T-Oy; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:18:23 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnOuJ-00088K-B7; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:18:03 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j08MHkC01669 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:17:46 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j08MHjC01666 for ; Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:17:45 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnOu0-0003DD-FW for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sat, 08 Jan 2005 22:17:45 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sat, 8 Jan 2005 22:16:29 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Printing Oddity References: <4D4MMGEHgt2BFwYq@pilling.demon.co.uk> <4d2a3205d9charles.hope@argonet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2a3205d9charles.hope@argonet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >The fault did occur with a standard driver "HPLaserJet 6". It was >GimpPrint that had no problems. Ah I understand now. > However, I've tried using SPrint and >Postscript 2 drivers and had no problem. Incidentally although the >problem first happened on my Iyonix, I got exactly the same fault on the >RISCPC - running Adjust. I would have expected the LaserJet to be using the same code in RISC OS as Sprinter does. I guess I'd be interested in seeing an example document, if you'd like to send it by private email. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sun Jan 9 13:17:10 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnTUy-0006uG-F5-0006ul."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:17:10 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnTUy-0006uG-F5; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:12:13 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnTUy-0006uG-F5; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:12:12 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnTUy-0002VD-Fu; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:12:12 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnTUk-0005t2-1c; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:11:58 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j093BZ817426 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 03:11:35 GMT Received: from mailout.zetnet.co.uk (mailout.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.47.231]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j093BZ017423 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 03:11:35 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from bts-0377.dialup.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.49.121] helo=zetnet.co.uk) by mailout.zetnet.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CnTUM-0006Md-00 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:11:35 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Michael M Martin To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 03:10:48 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [softwarelist] EasiWriter pro with Tables Message-ID: <4d2a5831dcmmartin@zetnet.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.04) POPstar/2.03 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Has any one else notice this oddity when doing tables, I did a 5 by 6 one for my nephew for school work, and put a border round them, I was trying to set some cells with deferent colour, I got one cell done to the colour I was after and on doing the Colour in the next cell all the all the inner lines disappeared and only leaving the outer Borders around the Table, and where by had to do them all over again. The other oddity when you click on do all cells with a border some time it will put a line around each cell, but some time it will only put the outer Border leaving the inner without. And is repeatable. Best Regards, Mick -- |^^^^ Michael Martin ^^^^^ mmartin@zetnet.co.uk ^^^|Using Kinetic RiscPC| | * http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/mmartin/fifepits/ *| Email and News by | | ^^^ http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/mmartin/sign/ ^^^| !Pluto | |====== Risc OS immune to email Virus ======|===With RISC OS 4===| -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sun Jan 9 13:17:11 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnUg3-0005He-Jf-0005Hv."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:17:11 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnUg3-0005He-Jf; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:27:43 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnUg3-0005He-Jf; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:27:43 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnUg2-0005j7-TQ; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:27:43 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnUfP-00026S-2u; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:27:03 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j094QqW06016 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:26:52 GMT Received: from mailout.zetnet.co.uk (mailout.zetnet.co.uk [194.247.47.231]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j094QpL05996 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 04:26:51 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from bts-0288.dialup.zetnet.co.uk ([194.247.49.32] helo=zetnet.co.uk) by mailout.zetnet.co.uk with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1CnUfC-0001rt-00 for ; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:26:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Michael M Martin To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 04:25:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [softwarelist] EasiWriter pro with Tables Message-ID: <4d2a5f05e2mmartin@zetnet.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.04) POPstar/2.03 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Sorry Lads, had one to many, sent my EasiWriter query to the wrong list. Best Regards, Mick -- |^^^^ Michael Martin ^^^^^ mmartin@zetnet.co.uk ^^^|Using Kinetic RiscPC| | * http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/mmartin/fifepits/ *| Email and News by | | ^^^ http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/mmartin/sign/ ^^^| !Pluto | |====== Risc OS immune to email Virus ======|===With RISC OS 4===| -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sun Jan 9 13:17:12 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnazO-0003NH-81-0003Q5."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:17:12 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnazO-0003NH-81; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:12:07 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnazO-0003NH-81; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:12:06 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnazO-0005b6-A0; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:12:06 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cnaz1-00039u-Ku; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 11:11:43 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j09BBS900707 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:11:28 GMT Received: from mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j09BBRg00704 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:11:27 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050109111122.HNBT24912.mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:11:22 +0000 Received: from risco.home ([81.110.160.151]) by aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with SMTP id <20050109111122.NNQS8064.aamta07-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@risco.home> for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:11:22 +0000 Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 11:04:22 +0000 (GMT) From: Anthony Hilton Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug To: Ovation Pro List In-Reply-To: <4d2a0b0671john@acornusers.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Organization: X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.53] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.2 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In on Sat 08 Jan, John M Ward wrote: > In article , > Steve Fryatt wrote: > > On 8 Jan, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote in message > > : > > > > > > My understanding is that fonts are more legible if they have lots > > > of different shapes. This is why people use lower case for small > > > print as the ascenders and descenders extend the number of > > > different and recognisable shapes. > > Indeed: it is much easier to recognise the letters from their much > more variant shapes than upper case letters. My understanding is that it is not just letter shapes but word shapes which aid legibility. Try a paragraph in 'normal' case (by which I mean generally lower case with the conventional upper case letters for first word of a sentence or proper nouns) and the same paragraph in all upper case. Anthony -- ajh@tinshill.f9.co.uk -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Sun Jan 9 13:17:13 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CncYZ-0002fr-Rl-0002gG."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:17:13 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CncYZ-0002fr-Rl; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:52:32 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CncYZ-0002fr-Rl; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:52:31 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CncYZ-0006WF-C7; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:52:31 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CncY2-0001hl-Hs; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:51:58 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j09Cpiv17224 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:51:44 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j09Cph017221 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 12:51:43 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CncXm-000Da6-Ft for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:51:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 12:51:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2a8d51eajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <4d2a0b0671john@acornusers.org> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 09 Jan, Anthony Hilton wrote: > In on Sat 08 Jan, John M Ward wrote: > > In article , Steve > > Fryatt wrote: > > > On 8 Jan, Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote in message > > > : > > > > > > > > > > My understanding is that fonts are more legible if they have lots > > > > of different shapes. This is why people use lower case for small > > > > print as the ascenders and descenders extend the number of > > > > different and recognisable shapes. > > > > Indeed: it is much easier to recognise the letters from their much > > more variant shapes than upper case letters. > My understanding is that it is not just letter shapes but word shapes > which aid legibility. Try a paragraph in 'normal' case (by which I mean > generally lower case with the conventional upper case letters for first > word of a sentence or proper nouns) and the same paragraph in all upper > case. In teaching the idea of desktop publishing (in comparison with typewriting) I get 11/12 year olds to reject the idea of underlining (because it destroys the design) and use of upper case (because it's less legible. That's the point at which one of the students produces a recently produced document from a senior member of staff which is either all in upper case or all underlined - and where you have to say either that Mrs Smith doesn't know what she's doing or was brought up in the old school of typewriting. By now both options are probably equally insulting! ;-) Of course as 15/16 year olds you may have to introduce the kids to using capitals sparingly and appropriately (see Peter Newble's series in Qercus) and to use rules in place of underlining. Getting onto topic: I'd quite like to see an automatic strike-through feature (in place of underlining) but it would have to use a contrasting colour. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:55:23 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CndBh-00070G-QO-00070t."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:55:23 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CndBh-00070G-QO; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:32:58 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CndBh-00070G-QO; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:32:57 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CndBg-0005ao-UU; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:32:57 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CndBL-0001y9-4Y; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:32:35 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j09DWPH26120 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:32:25 GMT Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j09DWPk26117 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:32:25 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CndBA-000FPK-Ay for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 13:32:24 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 13:22:23 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug References: <4d2a0b0671john@acornusers.org> <4d2a8d51eajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2a8d51eajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >I'd quite like to see an automatic strike-through feature (in place of >underlining) but it would have to use a contrasting colour. How would that work (as opposed to the existing strike through)? I suppose this event may show that people who do use underline don't use styles for it - underline as an effect does not provoke the bug. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:55:24 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CneUe-0001Cd-BZ-0001DC."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:55:24 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CneUe-0001Cd-BZ; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:56:37 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CneUe-0001Cd-BZ; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:56:36 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CneUe-0002zH-DN; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:56:36 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CneUP-0004g5-Bb; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 14:56:21 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j09Eu8n08925 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:56:08 GMT Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j09Eu8r08916 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 14:56:08 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.51.128.134] (port=35180 helo=smtp3.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CneUB-00074S-Kj for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:56:07 +0100 Received: from cp418204-a.dbsch1.nb.home.nl ([84.27.69.179]:55319 helo=padua) by smtp3.home.nl with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CneU9-0003zK-5J for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:56:05 +0100 Message-ID: <001101c4f65b$55912950$6502a8c0@padua> From: "Tonnie Demarteau" To: References: <4d2a0b0671john@acornusers.org> <4d2a8d51eajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Date: Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:55:56 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On Sunday, January 09, 2005 1:51 PM , John Cartmell wrote: > Getting onto topic: > I'd quite like to see an automatic strike-through feature (in place of > underlining) but it would have to use a contrasting colour. New style Strikeout Text Strike out, Thick, Yellow Isn't that already a kind of 'automatic' ? What it lacks is positioning. It depends on the font in use how nicely vertical aligned it looks. And the thickness of the line. Thick is still 'thin' on a black font or big fontsize. However, drawing a line yourself gives you all what you prefer in each document ... Tonnie -- Mrs Tonnie Demarteau - the Netherlands -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:55:25 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnfDP-0005oH-Pc-0005op."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:55:25 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnfDP-0005oH-Pc; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:42:52 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnfDP-0005oH-Pc; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:42:51 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnfDP-0005fc-Oh; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:42:51 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnfD8-0001C1-RK; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:42:34 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j09FgG818579 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:42:16 GMT Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j09FgGp18571 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:42:16 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnfBj-000Ply-GQ for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:41:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:38:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2a9caa70john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <4d2a0b0671john@acornusers.org> <4d2a8d51eajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 09 Jan, David Pilling wrote: > >I'd quite like to see an automatic strike-through feature (in place of > >underlining) but it would have to use a contrasting colour. > How would that work (as opposed to the existing strike through)? You're the one who supposed to have the answers! ;-) I do appreciate the problem though but probably the only time I've ever needed strike-through is as a copy of medieval documents where the strike-through line would be red on black letters. I can't really see it being easily possible - but whilst we're on the subject... > I suppose this event may show that people who do use underline don't use > styles for it - underline as an effect does not provoke the bug. That would make sense. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:55:26 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnfHx-0005Gv-Lb-0005He."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:55:26 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnfHx-0005Gv-Lb; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:47:34 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnfHx-0005Gv-Lb; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:47:33 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnfHx-0007kQ-Fp; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:47:33 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnfHk-0007l0-9M; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:47:20 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j09FlGJ19680 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:47:16 GMT Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j09FlG119677 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 15:47:16 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnfGZ-0000R1-IK for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:46:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 15:43:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2a9d2587john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <001101c4f65b$55912950$6502a8c0@padua> References: <4d2a0b0671john@acornusers.org> <4d2a8d51eajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <001101c4f65b$55912950$6502a8c0@padua> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 09 Jan, Tonnie Demarteau wrote: > On Sunday, January 09, 2005 1:51 PM , John Cartmell > wrote: > > Getting onto topic: I'd quite like to see an automatic strike-through > > feature (in place of underlining) but it would have to use a > > contrasting colour. > New style Strikeout Text Strike out, Thick, Yellow > Isn't that already a kind of 'automatic' ? Goes and hangs head in shame. Massive apologies to David. Expect public 'mea culpa' in a future issue of Qercus... ..OK so why wasn't it there last time I needed it? ;-) -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:55:58 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cnlio-00068M-Dp-00068h."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:55:58 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cnlio-00068M-Dp; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:39:42 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cnlio-00068M-Dp; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:39:42 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cnlio-0003zR-3s; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:39:42 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnliU-0000dA-KG; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 22:39:22 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j09Md4T04676 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:39:04 GMT Received: from moutng.kundenserver.de (moutng.kundenserver.de [212.227.126.184]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j09Md3m04672 for ; Sun, 9 Jan 2005 22:39:03 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [212.227.126.205] (helo=mrelayng.kundenserver.de) by moutng.kundenserver.de with esmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1CnliB-0007fh-00 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 23:39:03 +0100 Received: from [62.180.24.121] (helo=bach) by mrelayng.kundenserver.de with asmtp (Exim 3.35 #1) id 1CnliA-0004V5-01 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Sun, 09 Jan 2005 23:39:03 +0100 Date: Sun, 09 Jan 2005 23:04:53 +0100 From: Martin Wuerthner To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] sprites refuse to import Message-ID: <1b06c02a4d.martin@bach.planiverse.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Organization: MW Software User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/3.03b4 (MsgServe/2.16) (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Provags-ID: kundenserver.de abuse@kundenserver.de auth:e4772095be5169fd0e120a52273e9d27 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message David Pilling wrote: > >since posting my plea, i thought of running up ImageFS (version > >2.36, quite old, 1997), and, behold, both JPegs now load directly > >into Artworks with no problem. > > With ImageFS running, nothing will be as it seems, JPEG's will > automagically become sprites. > > >hm. fraid so. i have dug out old PlingScan 1.18, after doing > >"quit all" on ImageFS. dropped the problem JPeg into 1.18 and > >there's now no problem saving as sprite into Artworks. > >there does seem to be a problem here with 1.21. > > 1.21 may be configured differently to 1.18. The key is a "Force new format" option if there is such a thing. ArtWorks only loads "new format" sprites with 32k or 16M colours. For sprites with 256 colours or less it insits on the "old format" (RISC OS 3.1 style sprites). This is a known limitation in ArtWorks. Martin -- --------------------------------------------------------------------- Martin Wuerthner MW Software martin@mw-software.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:00 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cnnb9-0007XA-AB-0007Xr."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:00 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cnnb9-0007XA-AB; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:56 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cnnb9-0007XA-AB; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cnnb9-00013q-04; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cnnav-0003PB-RW; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:41 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0A0dV025489 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:31 GMT Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0A0dUa25486 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:30 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnnZv-000B95-3o for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:38:40 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:34:46 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2acdbf1dJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2a095d0csteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a095d0csteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2a095d0csteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>, Steven Pampling wrote: > Even HTML has other effects that can be used to mark a link other > than an underline. It surely depends on what sort of device the page is being displayed? Suppose you only have monochrome... -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:00 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnnbD-00040w-QN-00041V."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:00 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnnbD-00040w-QN; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:40:00 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnnbD-00040w-QN; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:59 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnnbD-0002G7-0Q; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:59 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cnnav-0005Xa-D8; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:41 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0A0dTF25483 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:29 GMT Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0A0dSK25480 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:39:28 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnnZt-000B95-4j for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:38:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:32:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2acd8101Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> References: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk>, Ian wrote: > If I may interject as a designer, it is always considered bad > practice in the design world, mainly for the reason already mentioned > of reducing typeface legibility by cutting through descenders What about underlined upper-case letters, or underlines that are spaced a little further away from the letters than the baseline position? -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:01 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cnnu6-0002KO-MF-0002Kq."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:01 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cnnu6-0002KO-MF; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:59:31 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cnnu6-0002KO-MF; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:59:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cnnu6-0000BK-NF; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:59:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cnntm-0007ji-Dt; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:59:10 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0A0x5L28252 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:59:05 GMT Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0A0x4d28248 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:59:04 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnnsZ-0009bq-Hy for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:57:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 00:54:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2acd8101Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> References: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> <4d2acd8101Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 10 Jan, Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote: > In article <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk>, Ian > wrote: > > If I may interject as a designer, it is always considered bad practice > > in the design world, mainly for the reason already mentioned of > > reducing typeface legibility by cutting through descenders > What about underlined upper-case letters, Why would you want to do that? > or underlines that are spaced a little further away from the letters > than the baseline position? No problem with Rules. BTW The Oxford Manual of Style advises that underlining should only be used where you are copying the style of a document that you are quoting and also notes that some editors use underline where house rules dictate that a phrase should be italicised for two reasons. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:02 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnpP4-00010P-7Q-000123."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:02 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnpP4-00010P-7Q; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:35:35 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnpP4-00010P-7Q; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:35:34 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnpP4-00072Q-34; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:35:34 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnpOd-0001Og-9j; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:35:07 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0A2Yn713192 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:34:49 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0A2YmE13189 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:34:48 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnpOJ-0007Ka-1F for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:34:48 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 02:29:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2ad844ffJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> References: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> <4d2acd8101Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell wrote: > On 10 Jan, Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote: > > What about underlined upper-case letters, > Why would you want to do that? Do make a stronger headline? For example, on impact printers (still often used when multipart forms need printed, eg for many companies' invoices) there might not be much choice of ways to make some text appear stronger. > > or underlines that are spaced a little further away from the letters > > than the baseline position? > No problem with Rules. > BTW The Oxford Manual of Style ... I don't think my local builders merchants have read that. -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:03 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cnxmm-00048X-D9-0004AA."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:03 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cnxmm-00048X-D9; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:32:37 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cnxmm-00048X-D9; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:32:36 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cnxml-0005l6-RY; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:32:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnxmH-00009J-2F; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:32:05 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0ABVA428563 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:31:10 GMT Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0ABV9F28558 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:31:09 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnxkF-0005SI-Iy for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:30:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 11:26:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2b096bcdjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2ad844ffJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> References: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> <4d2acd8101Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2ad844ffJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 10 Jan, Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote: > In article <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, > John Cartmell wrote: > > On 10 Jan, Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote: > > > What about underlined upper-case letters, > > Why would you want to do that? > Do make a stronger headline? For example, on impact printers (still > often used when multipart forms need printed, eg for many companies' > invoices) there might not be much choice of ways to make some text > appear stronger. Typewriters follow different rules. > > > or underlines that are spaced a little further away from the letters > > > than the baseline position? > > No problem with Rules. > > BTW The Oxford Manual of Style ... > I don't think my local builders merchants have read that. If they're attempting to work as qualified DTP workers they should. Check their contempt of people who do skilled building trade work without training (tempered by double sales to such people of course!). ;-) -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:03 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CnzUO-0003Ad-F6-0003BM."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:03 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CnzUO-0003Ad-F6; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:21:45 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnzUO-0003Ad-F6; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:21:44 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CnzUO-00053x-Bk; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:21:44 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CnzTp-0002zH-0n; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:21:09 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0ADKfE05187 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:20:41 GMT Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0ADKe105176 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:20:40 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from orphean-press.demon.co.uk ([193.237.242.97] helo=iyonix.iyonix) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CnzSW-000Mi4-3N for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:19:49 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "P. C. Newble" To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 13:20:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2b13d5c2mailing@orphean-press.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2b096bcdjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> References: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> <4d2acd8101Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2ad844ffJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2b096bcdjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/5.08) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) John Cartmell wrote: > > John Cartmell wrote: > Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote: > > For example, on impact printers (still often used when multipart > > forms need printed, eg for many companies' invoices) there might > > not be much choice of ways to make some text appear stronger. > Typewriters follow different rules. (I was determined to stay out of this, but feel I have to wade in with both feet to back John up!) The only forms of emphasis available on most typewriters for the past hundred-odd years, and most computer printers before the current generation of lasers and inkjets, were capitalisation, underlining and (rather unsatisfactorily) very wide letter-spacing. These echoed those used when writing by hand, so the conventions for their use are similar. Formal typsesetting has had six hundred years to evolve other forms of emphasis, principally italicisation but also small capitals, letter-spacing, etc., and conventions have evolved with them as to how they should be used -- conventions which aid the reader's understanding of the text. > > > BTW The Oxford Manual of Style ... (Probably the most comprehensive guide, but there are many others) > > I don't think my local builders merchants have read that. > If they're attempting to work as qualified DTP workers they should. > Check their contempt of people who do skilled building trade work > without training . . . or the contempt of anyone who has spent time learning how to to anything well for someone who hasn't, but "knows better" all the same. Many specialisations which appear on the surface to be dark arts turn out to make a lot more sense when you look more closely, and apparently arcane rules actually make perfect sense. In the case of computer printing we all have access to tools which, until twenty years ago, were available to just a small band of professional printers. As I wrote in Acorn Publisher in 2000 (sorry, but I can't think of a better way of putting it now): "The proliferation of DTP systems over the last few years has brought to many, including me, all the tools a typesetter needs, but the results are not always happy. In my opinion, we owe it to those who have režned the art of communication by movable type over the last six hundred years, and especially to the designers of the beautiful typefaces we now take for granted, to aim for standards of which they would have approved." Underlining is unnecessary when using DTP software; I haven't found a need for it since I abandoned my dot-matrix printer in favour of an inkjet and the brave new world of the RISC OS font manager. The only book I've read where its use seemed sensible (and was justified by a note at the beginning) was a collection of letters, where the editor wanted to retain for posterity the complicated single-, double- and triple-underlining of the original handwritten letters. If the same letters were quoted elsewhere, it would be sufficient to show the author's emphasis by italicisation. Peter Newble. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:07 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Co2zh-0006Rt-J0-0006Ss."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:07 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Co2zh-0006Rt-J0; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:06:18 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co2zh-0006Rt-J0; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:06:17 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co2zh-0001UJ-NW; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:06:17 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Co2z6-0008Or-Ab; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:05:40 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0AH5LP03801 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:05:21 GMT Received: from mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com (mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com [212.74.114.39]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0AH5Kk03795 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:05:21 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from dsl-80-41-223-240.access.uk.tiscali.com ([80.41.223.240]:10191 helo=dave) by mk-smarthost-3.mail.uk.tiscali.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Co2yl-000PoE-2J for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:05:19 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dave Symes To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 17:05:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2b287e92dfs@ukgateway.net> In-Reply-To: <4d2b096bcdjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> References: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> <4d2acd8101Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2ad844ffJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2b096bcdjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.39) POPstar/2.05 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2b096bcdjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell wrote: > If they're attempting to work as qualified DTP workers they should. Check > their contempt of people who do skilled building trade work without > training (tempered by double sales to such people of course!). ;-) Careful Jonny baby, you are heading for one of my real grumpy areas of contention. Dave S -- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:07 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Co5Fj-0003pX-Qw-0003q8."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:07 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Co5Fj-0003pX-Qw; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:31:00 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co5Fj-0003pX-Qw; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:30:59 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co5Fj-00059k-6K; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:30:59 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Co5FV-0004wm-AJ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:30:45 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0AJUBI12150 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:30:11 GMT Received: from mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0AJUBO12140 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:30:11 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050110193000.EQJP15658.mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:30:00 +0000 Received: from RiscPC ([81.109.34.98]) by aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050110193000.NKCJ769.aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@RiscPC> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:30:00 +0000 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:23:11 GMT From: Pete Bready To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: [softwarelist] Speeding up zip file updates Message-ID: <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com> X-Organization: Home User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/3.03b4 (MsgServe/2.16) (RISC-OS/4.29) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In order to backup my RiscPC harddrive, I drag each top level directory X to its corresponding !SparkFS zip file X/zip in a Backups folder which in turn I transfer over ethernet to my PC and thence to CD(s) using its burner. Each zip file can be fairly large in some instances. However, the first stage of refreshing the zip archive file can be interminably slow. I've tried *ZipStrength, for example, but my machine can still get locked up for what seems ages (it's a StrongArm RiscPC with Select 4.29). How can I speed up the process of refreshing the zip archives? Should/could I set up an obey file to run outside the desktop e.g. *copy x backups.x/zip sort of thing? -- Pete Bready -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:07 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Co5a9-0006s1-HP-0006sb."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:07 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Co5a9-0006s1-HP; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:52:06 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co5a9-0006s1-HP; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:52:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co5a9-00072W-7c; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:52:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Co5Zk-00064o-Fd; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:40 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0AJpLR16604 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:21 GMT Received: from astro.systems.pipex.net (astro.systems.pipex.net [62.241.163.6]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0AJpLO16598 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:21 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from RiscPC (81-178-201-95.dsl.pipex.com [81.178.201.95]) by astro.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2ADDDE000185 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:20 +0000 (GMT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Steven Pampling To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 19:51:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2b379d73steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> In-Reply-To: <4d2acdbf1dJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a095d0csteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> <4d2acdbf1dJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/2.05-a1 (RISC-OS/4.02) POPstar/2.04-pre2 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 10 Jan, Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote: > In article <4d2a095d0csteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com>, > Steven Pampling wrote: > > Even HTML has other effects that can be used to mark a link other > > than an underline. > It surely depends on what sort of device the page is being displayed? > Suppose you only have monochrome... Hmmm? Does your monochrome display only produce one size of font, with no italic or bold possible? To summarise my statements and those provided by more than one other here: Underline is a simplistic substitute for proper emphasis and is used as a last resort where the other (better) forms of emphasis are not available. The case of your builders merchant is one where I suspect they use a dot matrix printer and therefore the software driving the printer is perfectly capable of producing the effects required. However in most cases the effect required is none whatsoever since the straight text conveys the meaning. Larger or bold text will emphasise anything they require. -- Steve Pampling -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:08 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Co7W0-0002AL-Hh-0002Ax."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:08 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Co7W0-0002AL-Hh; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:55:57 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co7W0-0002AL-Hh; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:55:56 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co7W0-0006nq-A2; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:55:56 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Co7Vb-0007ta-Ad; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:55:31 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0ALtKT10359 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:55:20 GMT Received: from mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com (mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com [212.74.114.40]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0ALtKm10356 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:55:20 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from dsl-80-41-166-109.access.uk.tiscali.com ([80.41.166.109]:10200 helo=dave..nom) by mk-smarthost-4.mail.uk.tiscali.com with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Co7VQ-000GEi-GE for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:55:20 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Dave Symes To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 21:55:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [softwarelist] Re: Speeding up zip file updates Message-ID: <4d2b42fb1cdfs@ukgateway.net> In-Reply-To: <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com> References: <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.39) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_10,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com>, Pete Bready wrote: > In order to backup my RiscPC harddrive, I drag each top level directory X > to its corresponding !SparkFS zip file X/zip in a Backups folder which in > turn I transfer over ethernet to my PC and thence to CD(s) > using its burner. Each zip file can be fairly large in some instances. > However, the first stage of refreshing the zip archive file can be > interminably slow. I've tried *ZipStrength, for example, but my machine > can still get locked up for what seems ages (it's a StrongArm RiscPC > with Select 4.29). > How can I speed up the process of refreshing the zip archives? > Should/could I set up an obey file to run outside the desktop e.g. *copy > x backups.x/zip sort of thing? I have a similar situation, in that my SARPC doesn't have a CD burner, but my XP box does. So I also use SparkFS to archive stuff before shoving it over the network between the machines. However, I cheat a bit to save time. 1) Make sure the RO machines Next slot is large (25Mbytes) 2) Open SparkFS Choices, pull the max memory up to a good figure. 3) Type: Zip. Method: No compression. Save. Okay a time saving example. Zip with compression an 8.79 Mbyte directory takes 5:40 (5 mins 40 secs). The same directory, Zip with No compression 1:10 (1 minute 10 secs). Cheers Dave S -- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:09 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Co7xe-000527-Of-00052r."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:09 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Co7xe-000527-Of; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:24:31 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co7xe-000527-Of; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:24:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co7xe-0000bt-ER; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:24:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Co7wd-00057I-77; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:23:27 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0AMNK915780 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:23:20 GMT Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0AMNJS15777 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:23:19 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from south-frm.demon.co.uk ([80.177.26.219] helo=greatest) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Co7wV-000ISi-Ak for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:23:19 +0000 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:23:01 GMT From: Tim Powys-Lybbe To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Speeding up zip file updates Message-ID: <3685452b4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk> References: <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com> <4d2b42fb1cdfs@ukgateway.net> In-Reply-To: <4d2b42fb1cdfs@ukgateway.net> X-Organization: South Farm, Calstone, Calne, Wilts, England (no house here!) User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/3.03b4 (MsgServe/2.16) (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.06-ds.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message of 10 Jan, Dave Symes wrote: > In article <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com>, > Pete Bready wrote: > > How can I speed up the process of refreshing the zip archives? > > Should/could I set up an obey file to run outside the desktop e.g. *copy > > x backups.x/zip sort of thing? > > I have a similar situation, in that my SARPC doesn't have a CD burner, but > my XP box does. > > So I also use SparkFS to archive stuff before shoving it over the network > between the machines. > > However, I cheat a bit to save time. > 1) Make sure the RO machines Next slot is large (25Mbytes) > > 2) Open SparkFS Choices, pull the max memory up to a good figure. > > 3) Type: Zip. > Method: No compression. > > Save. > > Okay a time saving example. > > Zip with compression an 8.79 Mbyte directory takes 5:40 (5 mins 40 secs). > > The same directory, Zip with No compression 1:10 (1 minute 10 secs). Go buy Iyonix! Timings are for a 13 M Sprite file with max workspace: Program Setting Time File size ======= ======= ==== ========= SparkFS No Comp 17 sec 13 Mbyte SparkFS Shrink 21 sec 6 Mbyte SparkFS Deflate 43 sec 4 Mbyte Zipper (As is) 28 sec 4 Mbyte Zipper is at www.argonet.co.uk/business/hsdawson/soft.html Seriously though, disc space is so cheap these days that I would (and have) bought a spare large disc and just copy the files unzipped straight over. It is far quicker. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:12 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Co8Im-00079u-8B-0007Az."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:12 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Co8Im-00079u-8B; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:46:21 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co8Im-00079u-8B; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:46:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co8Im-0002HR-8g; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:46:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Co8IR-0001t3-7t; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:45:59 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0AMjou23052 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:45:50 GMT Received: from mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0AMjnu23048 for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:45:49 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050110224543.HQRW15658.mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:45:43 +0000 Received: from RiscPC ([81.109.34.98]) by aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050110224543.ZWYZ11644.aamta02-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@RiscPC> for ; Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:45:43 +0000 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 22:46:23 GMT From: Pete Bready To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Speeding up zip file updates Message-ID: References: <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com> <4d2b42fb1cdfs@ukgateway.net> <3685452b4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3685452b4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk> X-Organization: Home User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/3.03b4 (MsgServe/2.16) (RISC-OS/4.29) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message <3685452b4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk> Tim Powys-Lybbe wrote: > In message of 10 Jan, Dave Symes wrote: > > > In article <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com>, > > Pete Bready wrote: > > > > How can I speed up the process of refreshing the zip archives? > > > Should/could I set up an obey file to run outside the desktop e.g. *copy > > > x backups.x/zip sort of thing? > > > Zipper is at www.argonet.co.uk/business/hsdawson/soft.html I'll give that a go as well. > > Seriously though, disc space is so cheap these days that I would (and > have) bought a spare large disc and just copy the files unzipped > straight over. It is far quicker. Should've thought of that since I in effect do that on my PC - I've a handy proggy called Autosave which backs up to 10 previous versions of files entirely in the background to another drive (IIRC there's a similar program from Quantumsoft that does similar on the RiscPC ??). Unfortunately, until lately, I very stupidly set up a backup partition on the same hard drive which I then entirely lost! I would have sworn before the highest court that I had created that backup partition on my second drive. Fortunately I had also backed up to DVD most of my important files a few weeks earlier. See what you can do on a PC ;-). Maybe I should migrate to VirtualRPC - on second thoughts, a second RiscPC drive should be cheaper if I can find one small enough - I struggle to use half of the 7GB disc I have! Thanks -- Pete Bready -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:13 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Co9WE-0000Vb-Bb-0000WO."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:13 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Co9WE-0000Vb-Bb; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:04:19 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co9WE-0000Vb-Bb; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:04:18 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Co9WE-0004ul-9H; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:04:18 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Co9Vw-00047Y-Hk; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:04:00 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0B02xt06735 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:02:59 GMT Received: from relay.freeuk.net (relay.freeuk.net [212.126.144.54]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0B02wC06728 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:02:59 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from du-003-0143.freeuk.com ([212.126.145.143] helo=helvellyn) by relay.freeuk.net with esmtp (Exim 4.34) id 1Co9Uv-000P9Q-6e for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:02:57 +0000 Date: Mon, 10 Jan 2005 23:56:51 GMT From: Steve Fryatt To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> X-Organization: Home User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/3.03b4 (MsgServe/2.16) (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 X-Editor: Zap 1.46 (19 Oct 2004) [TEST], ZapEmail 0.27 (21 Mar 2003) test-6 (32) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 8 Jan, John Cartmell wrote in message <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>: > On 08 Jan, Steve Fryatt wrote: > > > Sure, but that's newspapers. John was asserting that unerlining was > > "always" bad practice, which I don't agree with. It may be the case > > in 'flashy' DTP based work, but for 'dull' things like reports, > > minutes, letters and so on, where the type size is usually larger, > > underlining still has an important role IMO. > > Underlining is permissible when using a typewriter and your choice of > emphasis is severely limited. That's not the case with the excellent > Ovation Pro to hand - even when producing 'dull' reports. That depends on what the people taking the report off you have specified you can do typographically. If their requirements include the stipulation that subheadings are in 12pt Times with underline, that's what you do. Been there, done that, many times (using Impression, as it happens). A lot of (possibly older) people in scientific and engineering circles still seem quite conservative in their typography. For example, I've had a number of people tell me, totally seriously, that my CV is a bit risque (bordering on the "file in the round filing cabinet" territory) because it dares to use a sans-serif font (with no underline) for the section headings. Apparently "you just don't do that" in serious documents... And just to repeat, I am *not* arguing for the use of underlining in DTP; just that sometimes, for some audiences, it can still be a necessary evil in WP. I have used O-Pro for both tasks. -- Steve Fryatt - Leeds, England http://www.stevefryatt.org.uk/ -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:14 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoADi-0003CX-O7-0003D1."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:14 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoADi-0003CX-O7; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:49:15 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoADi-0003CX-O7; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:49:14 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoADi-0006Uf-8n; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:49:14 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoADP-0007UC-UU; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:48:55 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0B0mgF15641 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:48:42 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0B0mfP15638 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:48:42 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoADB-000KQb-7s for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:48:41 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 00:44:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 10 Jan, Steve Fryatt wrote: > On 8 Jan, John Cartmell wrote in message > <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk>: > > On 08 Jan, Steve Fryatt wrote: > > > > > Sure, but that's newspapers. John was asserting that unerlining was > > > "always" bad practice, which I don't agree with. It may be the case > > > in 'flashy' DTP based work, but for 'dull' things like reports, > > > minutes, letters and so on, where the type size is usually larger, > > > underlining still has an important role IMO. > > > > Underlining is permissible when using a typewriter and your choice of > > emphasis is severely limited. That's not the case with the excellent > > Ovation Pro to hand - even when producing 'dull' reports. > That depends on what the people taking the report off you have specified > you can do typographically. If their requirements include the > stipulation that subheadings are in 12pt Times with underline, that's > what you do. Been there, done that, many times (using Impression, as it > happens). It's the people doing the specification that need to take note. As someone with experience of specifications within government contracts it's astounding how some of the requirements surfaced. One that I encountered was a specification for a box to hold computer motherboards that was based on restrictions imposed by machinery and practice producing boxes in the 19th century. No one had bothered telling the specifiers that the restrictions for producing wooden boxes didn't apply when using plastic sheet material - actually we did tell them - but the next order repeated the original specification! > A lot of (possibly older) people in scientific and engineering circles > still seem quite conservative in their typography. For example, I've > had a number of people tell me, totally seriously, that my CV is a bit > risque (bordering on the "file in the round filing cabinet" territory) > because it dares to use a sans-serif font (with no underline) for the > section headings. Apparently "you just don't do that" in serious > documents... > And just to repeat, I am *not* arguing for the use of underlining in > DTP; just that sometimes, for some audiences, it can still be a > necessary evil in WP. I have used O-Pro for both tasks. I presume that when they ask for plans you're quite happy to produce them as white lines on a printed blue background... ;-) -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:15 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoBYd-0004QP-3S-0004R8."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:15 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoBYd-0004QP-3S; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:14:56 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoBYd-0004QP-3S; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:14:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoBYc-0004jA-SO; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:14:54 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoBYD-00020w-7X; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:14:29 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0B2EHH31962 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:14:17 GMT Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0B2EHU31959 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:14:17 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoBX9-0000JU-5p for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:13:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 02:07:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2b5a11e4Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2b13d5c2mailing@orphean-press.demon.co.uk> References: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> <4d2acd8101Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2ad844ffJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2b096bcdjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2b13d5c2mailing@orphean-press.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2b13d5c2mailing@orphean-press.demon.co.uk>, P. C. Newble wrote: > John Cartmell wrote: > > > John Cartmell wrote: > > Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote: > > > For example, on impact printers (still often used when multipart > > > forms need printed, eg for many companies' invoices) there might > > > not be much choice of ways to make some text appear stronger. > > Typewriters follow different rules. > (I was determined to stay out of this, but feel I have to wade in with > both feet to back John up!) The only forms of emphasis available on > most typewriters for the past hundred-odd years, and most computer > printers before the current generation of lasers and inkjets, were > capitalisation, underlining and (rather unsatisfactorily) very wide > letter-spacing... I accept that these days much printing is done on eg laser printers, in fancy fonts, but that doesn't mean that all of it is. I used to work for a bank, and apart from our huge and very fast laser printers (roll-fed), we also had impact printers. These were still needed, for printing share certificates and other legal documents, I think because the stationery itself was very valuable and perhaps because it couldn't be fed into a more recent printer. I doubt there was any underlining on those documents, but there might have been. I have no idea if those printers have been replaced. -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:19 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoIXv-0001vt-R4-0001x6."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:19 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoIXv-0001vt-R4; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:42:41 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoIXv-0001vt-R4; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:42:39 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoIXv-0006s4-58; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:42:39 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoIXc-0007WZ-Ij; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:42:20 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0B9g4D28159 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:42:04 GMT Received: from hotmail.com (bay102-f39.bay102.hotmail.com [64.4.61.49]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0B9g3k28149 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:42:03 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from mail pickup service by hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 01:42:01 -0800 Message-ID: Received: from 213.249.130.71 by by102fd.bay102.hotmail.msn.com with HTTP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:41:33 GMT X-Originating-IP: [213.249.130.71] X-Originating-Email: [angelacraggs@hotmail.com] X-Sender: angelacraggs@hotmail.com In-Reply-To: <4d2b5a11e4Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> From: "Angela Craggs" To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: [softwarelist] Underlining (was Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:41:33 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2005 09:42:01.0772 (UTC) FILETIME=[CD4386C0:01C4F7C1] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_10,IN_REP_TO,MSG_ID_ADDED_BY_MTA_2 version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Hi I work in a school and I have just about given up trying to persuade teaching staff to use bold, italic or an alternative font instead of underlining in their own work. The problem is continued when they tell the pupils to type in a heading and underline it. I also have a problem with two spaces after a full stop. I understand that with proportional fonts one space is sufficient and that is what I have used for years. However the Office staff use two spaces and when it crops up that is what the teachers tell the pupils to use. What does the Oxford Guide say? Angela Craggs -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:20 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoInT-0001Rg-9I-0001Si."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:20 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoInT-0001Rg-9I; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:58:44 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoInT-0001Rg-9I; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:58:43 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoInT-0005ZF-KW; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:58:43 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoImG-0006BC-0P; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:57:28 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0B9v8332387 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:57:08 GMT Received: from smtp4.global.net.uk (smtp4.global.net.uk [80.189.92.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0B9v7k32384 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:57:07 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from 223.247.adsl.brightview.com ([80.189.247.223] helo=RTV) by smtp4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1CoIlu-0003im-UA for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:57:07 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 08:47:48 +0000 From: Mik Towse To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4D2B7EB85E%mik.towse@xemik.com> References: <200501081311.j08DBFt18344@ns.realpoint.co.uk> <4d2acd8101Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2acf8c69john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2ad844ffJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2b096bcdjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2b13d5c2mailing@orphean-press.demon.co.uk> <4d2b5a11e4Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2b5a11e4Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> X-Organization: Xemik Solutions! Ltd User-Agent: Messenger-Pro 2.62 POPstar/2.05 X-Editor: Zap 1.45, using ZapEmail 0.26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Authenticated-Sender: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by svr1.spellings.net id j0B9v7k32385 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2b5a11e4Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote: > I accept that these days much printing is done on eg laser printers, in > fancy fonts, but that doesn't mean that all of it is. Have you seen the price of dot matrix printers these days? Staples had one for c£200! > I used to work for a bank, and apart from our huge and very fast laser > printers (roll-fed), we also had impact printers. These were still > needed, for printing share certificates and other legal documents, I > think because the stationery itself was very valuable and perhaps > because it couldn't be fed into a more recent printer. [snip] I don't know how valuable the stationery was, but I think it could (& probably is by now) be made for other printers. The reason I was given for using impact printers is based on the same principle as the tally stick. In theory, they produce exactly the same impression/document at exactly the same time. -- Mik Towse * mik.towse@xemik.com * http://www.xemik.co.uk/ My writers' site can be found at: http://www.lexis.org.uk xemik.net - cost effective web hosting : http://xemik.net Sweater, n.: A garment worn by a child when it's mother feels chilly -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:20 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoIse-0005A8-MF-0005B5."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:20 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoIse-0005A8-MF; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:04:05 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoIse-0005A8-MF; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:04:04 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoIse-0003T1-K3; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:04:04 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoIsJ-00087V-QM; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:03:43 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BA3Vo02234 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:03:31 GMT Received: from galaxy.systems.pipex.net (galaxy.systems.pipex.net [62.241.162.31]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BA3VT02230 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:03:31 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from MARSDEN9.btinternet.com (81-86-166-106.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.166.106]) by galaxy.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1258E000228 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:03:26 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> X-Sender: phillip.marsden@217.12.12.124 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:01:41 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: Phillip Marsden Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug In-Reply-To: <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-12E015C7 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) At 00:44 11/01/2005, John Cartmell wrote: >[snip] > >I presume that when they ask for plans you're quite happy to produce them >as white lines on a printed blue background... ;-) If they are paying the bill... One can only advise the client. If they take no notice, then why should I worry that the way they wish to do things will give me 3 months income instead of 1 month income? -- Regards, Phillip Marsden. phillip.marsden@btinternet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.9 - Release Date: 06/01/2005 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:20 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoIxo-0006kX-G2-0006lY."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:20 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoIxo-0006kX-G2; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:09:25 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoIxo-0006kX-G2; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:09:24 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoIxo-0006ez-Nw; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:09:24 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoIxW-0003ZK-L3; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:09:06 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BA90I03798 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:09:00 GMT Received: from mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk (mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk [212.104.129.139]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BA8xT03788 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:08:59 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E93461341D8 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:08:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 25032-01-4 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:08:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MartinRPC (unknown [82.152.145.38]) by mra04.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BFDF134206 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:08:57 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:08:43 GMT From: Martin Devon To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/4.37) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by Eclipse VIRUSshield at eclipse.net.uk Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Angela Craggs wrote: > Hi > > I work in a school and I have just about given up trying to persuade > teaching staff to use bold, italic or an alternative font instead of > underlining in their own work. The problem is continued when they tell the > pupils to type in a heading and underline it. > > I also have a problem with two spaces after a full stop. I understand that > with proportional fonts one space is sufficient and that is what I have used > for years. However the Office staff use two spaces and when it crops up that > is what the teachers tell the pupils to use. What does the Oxford Guide say? I think the Cambridge Certificate in I.T. is quite specific: one space only in a proportional font and 2 in a monospaced font. Nothing else is acceptable for the WP module; moreover it must be consistent throughout the document. Older people trained as typists have been taught always 2 spaces; that is now wrong. When typesetting the old way with lead letters it is clear that a stop in a proportional font has a designed space associated with it, whereas a typewritten stop is simply centred, ie equal space both sides, so needs an extra space at a stop. Back to underlining:- obviously cutting descenders isimpossible in leads. A lead rule can be inserted but at the cost of upsetting line spacing. I have always understood underlining in a text to be no more than an instruction to set the underlined text in italics. In my opinion finished work should avoid underlining altogether. -- Martin R. Devon MSc Consulting Engineer Box, Wilts, UK -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:21 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoJ0A-0003UQ-LZ-0003VH."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:21 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoJ0A-0003UQ-LZ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:11:51 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoJ0A-0003UQ-LZ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:11:50 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoJ0A-0007Sa-8t; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:11:50 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoIzN-0003bU-Fm; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:11:01 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BAArG04374 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:10:53 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BAAro04368 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:10:53 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from south-frm.demon.co.uk ([80.177.26.219] helo=greatest) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoIzE-0005CK-Et for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:10:52 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:09:31 GMT From: Tim Powys-Lybbe To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining (was Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug) Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Organization: South Farm, Calstone, Calne, Wilts, England (no house here!) User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/3.03b4 (MsgServe/2.16) (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.06-ds.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message of 11 Jan, "Angela Craggs" wrote: > I work in a school and I have just about given up trying to persuade > teaching staff to use bold, italic or an alternative font instead of > underlining in their own work. The problem is continued when they > tell the pupils to type in a heading and underline it. > > I also have a problem with two spaces after a full stop. I understand > that with proportional fonts one space is sufficient and that is > what I have used for years. However the Office staff use two spaces > and when it crops up that is what the teachers tell the pupils to > use. What does the Oxford Guide say? I agree with the office staff. It is a problem of legibility of full stops. With those of us with failing eyesight, the full stops do not stand out. So the double space helps to signify the end of the sentence. Mind you I know of one teacher who does not use any space after a full stop: the next sentence starts immediately with its first letter and the capital letters (in handwriting) are a bit amorphous. -- Tim Powys-Lybbe tim@powys.org For a miscellany of bygones: http://powys.org -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:21 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoJVw-0005fy-95-0005gp."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:21 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoJVw-0005fy-95; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:44:41 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoJVw-0005fy-95; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:44:40 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoJVw-0005k2-Ew; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:44:40 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoJVY-0008Fl-Ke; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:44:16 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BAhvJ14730 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:43:57 GMT Received: from smtp.argonet.co.uk (centipede.freedom2.net [213.161.67.201]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BAhvK14724 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:43:57 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.116.60.221] (helo=213.116.60.221) by smtp.argonet.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CoJTy-0001Lr-Mc for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:42:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Richard Travers To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:58:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining (was Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug) Message-ID: <4d2b85366brichto@argonet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <4d2b5a11e4Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/2.04e (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article , Angela Craggs wrote: > What does the Oxford Guide say? Single space only after any sentence punctuation (i.e. including full stop). Of course, most published work is fully justified, so the actual space used will vary from line to line. Richard -- Richard Travers richto@argonet.co.uk Truro, Cornwall 01872 271125 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:22 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoJol-00048L-I2-00049f."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:22 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoJol-00048L-I2; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:04:08 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoJol-00048L-I2; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:04:07 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoJol-0000EL-2t; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:04:07 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoJoY-0007Wk-Oz; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:54 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BB3kj21567 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:46 GMT Received: from mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BB3k721562 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:46 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111110340.SZGI15581.mta10-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:40 +0000 Received: from linux.at.home ([81.96.74.55]) by aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111110340.YVAP9818.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@linux.at.home> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:40 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:03:34 +0000 From: John Pettigrew To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: Mail-Followup-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-Organization: XL Cambridge User-Agent: Gemini/1.45d (Qt/3.3.1) (Linux-i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="91937914--252457219--1411989204"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) --91937914--252457219--1411989204 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a previous message, Martin Devon wrote: =20 > Older people trained as typists have been taught always 2 spaces; that = is > now wrong. Actually, it's still correct - on typewriters. In printed matter, all the publishers with whom I've worked (which includ= es many of the big ones such as Elsevier and Cambridge University Press) use= single spaces after full stops. > I have always understood underlining in a text to be no more than an > instruction to set the underlined text in italics. That's certainly the British Standard for copyediting marks. Indeed, ther= e is no standard mark with which the copy editor can indicate that text is to = be underlined! John --=20 John Pettigrew XL Cambridge - contract and freelance editing Biology specialist Molecular biology, genetics, biotechnology john@xl-cambridge.com http://www.xl-cambridge.com/ PGP public key available --91937914--252457219--1411989204 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB47KKp6M/P/S/JWgRAgMyAKCOWfo+Ok789ckIrhGG0nLgrh3Z1ACeIqJB LpG05VRKDOc+DyYDv61hfGo= =BtAc -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --91937914--252457219--1411989204-- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:22 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoJzC-0007KO-ED-0007L8."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:22 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoJzC-0007KO-ED; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:55 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoJzC-0007KO-ED; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:54 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoJzC-0003dt-7z; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:54 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoJyl-0001l0-Kb; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:27 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BBEHT25593 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:17 GMT Received: from mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk [212.104.129.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BBEHB25590 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:17 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E44182E2EDD for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 28211-01-3 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:15 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MartinRPC (unknown [82.152.145.38]) by mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8A032E32AA for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:14 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:14:09 GMT From: Martin Devon To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <7d1e8c2b4d.Martin@heleigh.org.uk> References: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/4.37) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by Eclipse VIRUSshield at eclipse.net.uk Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) John Pettigrew wrote > In a previous message, Martin Devon wrote: > > > Older people trained as typists have been taught always 2 spaces; that is > > now wrong. > > Actually, it's still correct - on typewriters. true, unless it's an IBM Composing typewriter.... > Martin -- Martin R. Devon MSc Consulting Engineer Box, Wilts, UK -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:22 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoKYc-0003FO-HT-0003Ge."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:22 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoKYc-0003FO-HT; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:51:31 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoKYc-0003FO-HT; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:51:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoKYc-0000qJ-6D; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:51:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoKYI-0007xQ-0j; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:51:10 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BBoba06703 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:50:37 GMT Received: from smtpq2.home.nl (smtpq2.home.nl [213.51.128.197]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BBobO06699 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 11:50:37 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.51.128.136] (port=39189 helo=smtp5.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoKXk-0001nA-Qc for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:50:36 +0100 Received: from cp418204-a.dbsch1.nb.home.nl ([84.27.69.179]:55014 helo=padua) by smtp5.home.nl with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoKXj-0003UU-3u for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:50:35 +0100 Message-ID: <004101c4f7d3$c07d3e10$6502a8c0@padua> From: "Tonnie Demarteau" To: References: Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:50:28 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On Tuesday, January 11, 2005 11:08 AM , Martin Devon wrote: .. > Back to underlining:- obviously cutting descenders isimpossible in > leads. A lead rule can be inserted but at the cost of upsetting line > spacing. I have always understood underlining in a text to be no more > than an instruction > to set the underlined text in italics. In my opinion finished work > should avoid underlining altogether. Don't think I am in favour of underlining ... With digital type also underline (and strike through or out in TrueType fonts) has to be defined inside a font. There is a default - distance from baseline and width of the line. But, in a good design, both position and width are also adapted to the font itself. To the liking of the designer. E.g. much bigger width for a Bold and Heavy font than for a Thin font can be applied, taking serifs into account and so on. So, even the underline and strike through can become 'proportional'. In a Type1 with .afm you can see what is used for underline near the top of the file, when loaded in a text editor. This is used, when a program relies on that info. Of course, in that case the underline and/or strike through will always have the colour of the font. Wordpad in Windows uses the data about underline found inside a font. E.g. Type 4 lines with underline in Arial, Arial Bold, Bold Italic, Italic in 18pt. The different width becomes visible. Same, when you change to Times New Roman. In Courier New the underline is completely below the 'g' When you change to Comic Sans, Lucida Console or Microsoft Sans - here same width is used for all weights. However, a (DTP) program doesn't need to use these facilities (underline and strike through) inside a font. Like OP has its own basics, as far as it goes configurable with f6 - Modify Text Window. Or a user can apply his own underlining using the line tool. And then there is also Underline, which only underline words. Not the spaces. Anyway, when people want to use underline or strike through, this isn't always done the same. Also not digitally. Tonnie -- Mrs Tonnie Demarteau - the Netherlands -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:24 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoL1l-0003jT-IN-0003ko."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:24 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoL1l-0003jT-IN; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:21:39 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoL1l-0003jT-IN; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:21:37 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoL1l-0002Mp-BS; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:21:37 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoL1L-0007AD-SQ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:21:11 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BCKx716643 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:20:59 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BCKwB16632 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:20:59 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoL18-0008iN-7S for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:20:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:20:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan, Phillip Marsden wrote: > At 00:44 11/01/2005, John Cartmell wrote: > >[snip] > > > >I presume that when they ask for plans you're quite happy to produce > >them as white lines on a printed blue background... ;-) > If they are paying the bill... But in a forum looking at good practice it's not a style you would advise using? ;-) David's right to include underline as an option in Ovation Pro. That doesn't mean that any of us need choose to use it. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:36 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoM5I-0006mI-7u-0006mz."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:36 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoM5I-0006mI-7u; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:29:21 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoM5I-0006mI-7u; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:29:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoM5I-00036o-6Q; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:29:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoM3y-0001oP-Q4; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:27:58 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BDReh12923 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:27:40 GMT Received: from smarthost4.mail.uk.easynet.net (smarthost4.mail.uk.easynet.net [212.135.6.14]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BDRd712884 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:27:39 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from bb-195-172-49-136.ukonline.co.uk ([195.172.49.136] helo=nails.norbins) by smarthost4.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 1CoM3a-0000mN-00 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:27:34 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:17:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Jim Nagel Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Organization: speaking for myself X-Return-Rcpt-To: jim@abbeypress.net X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.53] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO, SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On Tue 11 Jan, Martin Devon wrote: > I think the Cambridge Certificate in I.T. is quite specific: one space only in a > proportional font and 2 in a monospaced font. ... > Back to underlining:- obviously cutting descenders is ... and what does Cambridge have to say about dashes? my touch-typing course (in Canada) taught us to type a dash as TWO hyphens, with no space -- like this. -- Jim Nagel -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:37 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoMHG-0002eu-Gl-0002fx."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:37 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoMHG-0002eu-Gl; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:41:43 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMHG-0002eu-Gl; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:41:42 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMHF-0003ok-VB; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:41:42 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoMGw-0006T6-I8; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:41:22 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BDfEd19891 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:41:14 GMT Received: from mail.jtfreesurf.co.uk (mail.jtfreesurf.co.uk [212.9.8.7]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with SMTP id j0BDfEt19887 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:41:14 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from iyonix ([82.112.131.62]) by mail.jtfreesurf.co.uk (Merak 7.6.1) with SMTP id KLA74787 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:41:10 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:42:37 GMT From: michael talibard To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Organization: home User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) My wife was trained as a secretary in the 60s and so believes in two spaces ater a full stop. I am an English teacher of similar vintage, and regard that as an abomination. Similarly, the paragraph break made by hitting return twice (rather than return, tab) is known in my classes as a 'secretarial paragraph' and is not permitted, except in business letters, where the secretaries (sadly) have to be allowed to set their own norms. Rather to my horror, it seems to flourish also in emails. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:37 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoMbf-0003WX-HE-0003XL."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:37 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoMbf-0003WX-HE; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:02:48 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMbf-0003WX-HE; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:02:47 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMbf-00041I-5s; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:02:47 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoMb5-0000Jq-CS; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:02:11 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BE20227749 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:02:00 GMT Received: from mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk [212.104.129.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BE1xN27734 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:02:00 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0C662E32A3 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:01:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 14153-01-55 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:01:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MartinRPC (unknown [82.152.145.38]) by mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49D7F2E32E8 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:01:57 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:01:52 GMT From: Martin Devon To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes Message-ID: <82799b2b4d.Martin@heleigh.org.uk> References: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/4.37) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by Eclipse VIRUSshield at eclipse.net.uk Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Jim Nagel wrote: > > > and what does Cambridge have to say about dashes? my touch-typing > course (in Canada) taught us to type a dash as TWO hyphens, with > no space -- like this. Can't find any specific reference to dashes/hyphens for typing. For DTP ideally one should use an n-dash (ascii 151) as hyphen and m-dash (ascii 153) as a dash proper, though I fear the minus sign is used most times :-( Martin -- Martin R. Devon MSc Consulting Engineer Box, Wilts, UK -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:37 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoMcU-0005n1-5n-0005oa."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:37 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoMcU-0005n1-5n; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:03:40 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMcU-0005n1-5n; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:03:38 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMcU-00066C-IV; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:03:38 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoMc8-0001zH-HY; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:03:16 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BE35u28055 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:03:05 GMT Received: from galaxy.systems.pipex.net (galaxy.systems.pipex.net [62.241.162.31]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BE34M28048 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:03:04 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from MARSDEN9.btinternet.com (81-86-166-106.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.166.106]) by galaxy.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D4F8E00013A for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:03:04 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> X-Sender: phillip.marsden@217.12.12.124 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 13:59:36 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: Phillip Marsden Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug In-Reply-To: <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-5236487E Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) At 12:20 11/01/2005, John Cartmell wrote: >On 11 Jan, Phillip Marsden wrote: > > At 00:44 11/01/2005, John Cartmell wrote: > > > >[snip] > > > > > >I presume that when they ask for plans you're quite happy to produce > > >them as white lines on a printed blue background... ;-) > > > If they are paying the bill... > >But in a forum looking at good practice it's not a style you would advise >using? ;-) > >David's right to include underline as an option in Ovation Pro. That >doesn't mean that any of us need choose to use it. I couldn't care less about underlining one way or another. I was responding to your specific point which had wandered off the original topic of underlining. You appeared to be saying that a client specifying something that you considered incorrect practice was stupid (at the least), and that the client should be forced to comply with your idea of good practice. You appear to exist in a non-real world and forget that if someone is paying you to do a job then you do it their way unless you can negotiate with them to do it another way. If they are adamant that you do it their way, then you either do it their way or don't work for the client. This is not a theoretical nicety John, this is real-world stuff. -- Regards, Phillip Marsden. phillip.marsden@btinternet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:38 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoMp1-0006VX-CD-0006WU."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:38 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoMp1-0006VX-CD; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:16:36 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMp1-0006VX-CD; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:16:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMp1-0006MG-Hd; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:16:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoMoh-0006Yu-Sv; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:16:15 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BEG9e32412 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:16:09 GMT Received: from mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BEG8u32409 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:16:09 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111141603.KVFT15658.mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:16:03 +0000 Received: from linux.at.home ([81.96.74.55]) by aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111141603.WKCG9818.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@linux.at.home> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:16:03 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:16:00 +0000 From: John Pettigrew To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> Mail-Followup-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-Organization: XL Cambridge User-Agent: Gemini/1.45d (Qt/3.3.1) (Linux-i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="1024536853--2090142721--734008127"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) --1024536853--2090142721--734008127 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a previous message, michael talibard wrote: > Rather to my horror, [the double return] seems to flourish also in emai= ls. There's a good reason for that. In emails, there is a hard return at the = end of every line so, if you want to indicate a *real* paragraph break, the u= se of a double return is the only method available - if the previous line is fu= ll width, it's impossible to tell if a break is wanted. Also, if you want to take the text from a long email (I've dealt with ent= ire articles in this form) into a word processor and deal with it, it's *vast= ly* faster if you can do a search and replace for the fake paragraph breaks a= nd remove them which can only be done if the real paragraph breaks are doubl= ed. John --=20 John Pettigrew XL Cambridge - contract and freelance editing Biology specialist Molecular biology, genetics, biotechnology john@xl-cambridge.com http://www.xl-cambridge.com/ PGP public key available --1024536853--2090142721--734008127 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB49+gp6M/P/S/JWgRAjfbAJ4zoC4VLtKvU4EGVx/ry5mw2MIj/QCeLuQE SwaKDTBXwkXMXfmP/COG0fI= =wlFp -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1024536853--2090142721--734008127-- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:38 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoMw0-00029E-EZ-00029t."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:38 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoMw0-00029E-EZ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:23:49 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMw0-00029E-EZ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:23:48 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMw0-0000aQ-AF; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:23:48 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoMvi-0005co-AS; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:23:30 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BENOW02444 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:23:24 GMT Received: from mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BENO702439 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:23:24 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111142322.KXIL22154.mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:23:22 +0000 Received: from linux.at.home ([81.96.74.55]) by aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111142322.CFPV769.aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@linux.at.home> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:23:22 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:23:20 +0000 From: John Pettigrew To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <82799b2b4d.Martin@heleigh.org.uk> References: <82799b2b4d.Martin@heleigh.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-Organization: XL Cambridge User-Agent: Gemini/1.45d (Qt/3.3.1) (Linux-i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="643723073--995709950--1973904209"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) --643723073--995709950--1973904209 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a previous message, Martin Devon wrote: > For DTP ideally one should use an n-dash (ascii 151) as hyphen NO NO NO NO NO !!! This nasty thing is becoming more and more common for no good reason. The= character to use as a hyphen is (strangely) the hyphen. The en dash is us= ed as a dash to indicate an aside (sometimes) or to indicate relationship betwe= en the words, as in Creutzfeld-Jacob disease, for example, which is named af= ter two people (with the surnames Creutzfeld and Jacob) rather than one perso= n with a double-barrelled surname. [The solidus (/) is sometimes used inste= ad of the en dash in this sense, but should really be reserved to mean "and/or"= so as to avoid confusion.] > and m-dash (ascii 153) as a dash proper, though I fear the minus sign i= s > used most times :-( The em dash is properly only used as a dash - and should not take spaces = on each side. It would be hard to use a minus sign instead by mistake becaus= e the em dash is considerably wider than a minus sign. There are three dashes commonly used - the hyphen, the en dash and the em= dash. The first exists only to join words (whether when broken across lin= es or when creating compound words, as in "double-barrelled surnames" above). T= he second and third are used as punctuation marks in various ways. If in dou= bt which of these two to use, use an en dash. If you have no idea at all, st= ick to hyphens. John --=20 John Pettigrew XL Cambridge - contract and freelance editing Biology specialist Molecular biology, genetics, biotechnology john@xl-cambridge.com http://www.xl-cambridge.com/ PGP public key available --643723073--995709950--1973904209 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB4+FYp6M/P/S/JWgRAhf/AJ9zvgDxkP+sYMVlEC/GLc49gkLBVgCbBuvU HKE1fNrs2LFiuMaiE2Zi6EE= =PXJx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --643723073--995709950--1973904209-- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:40 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoMxW-0007ET-5l-0007FX."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:40 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoMxW-0007ET-5l; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:25:24 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMxW-0007ET-5l; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:25:22 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoMxW-0003Go-G3; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:25:22 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoMxD-000840-5o; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:25:03 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BEOqJ02896 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:24:52 GMT Received: from mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BEOqu02891 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:24:52 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111142450.IFC24912.mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:24:50 +0000 Received: from linux.at.home ([81.96.74.55]) by aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111142450.VSUQ7271.aamta06-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@linux.at.home> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:24:50 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:24:48 +0000 From: John Pettigrew To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> Mail-Followup-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-Organization: XL Cambridge User-Agent: Gemini/1.45d (Qt/3.3.1) (Linux-i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="1111936153--1931629215--1885343471"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) --1111936153--1931629215--1885343471 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a previous message, Phillip Marsden w= rote: > if someone is paying you to do a job then you do it their way unless yo= u can > negotiate with them to do it another way. Indeed - I've had a few clients with eccentric house styles and you just = have to live with them after a point. I find that the prospect of payment sets= many qualms to rest :-) John --=20 John Pettigrew XL Cambridge - contract and freelance editing Biology specialist Molecular biology, genetics, biotechnology john@xl-cambridge.com http://www.xl-cambridge.com/ PGP public key available --1111936153--1931629215--1885343471 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB4+Gwp6M/P/S/JWgRAhm+AJ9ryCXHwNRUUbqFCDUfCf3uGF0CwwCgghOW ySgzlmiubKzoZjvEQxmno6k= =79QN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1111936153--1931629215--1885343471-- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:40 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoN5O-0006Cw-LX-0006FH."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:40 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoN5O-0006Cw-LX; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:32 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoN5O-0006Cw-LX; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoN5O-0007nS-FX; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoN54-00045g-Fm; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:10 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BEX4h05596 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:04 GMT Received: from mta13-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BEX3t05591 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:03 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta13-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111143302.HHAD10495.mta13-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:02 +0000 Received: from Iyo ([80.0.194.216]) by aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111143302.RAXN7419.aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@Iyo> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:02 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Grahame Parish To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:33:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> In-Reply-To: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com>, michael talibard wrote: > My wife was trained as a secretary in the 60s > and so believes in two spaces ater a full stop. > I am an English teacher of similar vintage, and > regard that as an abomination. I was told in my last job that I had to use two spaces after a full stop in correspondence (although it was word-processed, this was WordPerfect 4/5 about 15 years ago). Now I find it hard not to type two spaces after a full stop as my fingers have learned the habit! > Similarly, the paragraph break made by hitting > return twice (rather than return, tab) is known in > my classes as a 'secretarial paragraph' and is not > permitted, except in business letters, where the > secretaries (sadly) have to be allowed to set their > own norms. That sounds the wrong way round to me. Surely a blank line space is required between paragraphs. I haven't seen tab-indented paragraphs for years - word-processing seems to have killed them off altogether, along with the centred signature block at the bottom of a letter. But to indicate a new paragraph just by indenting the first line without a line space seems so wrong and makes readability worse IMHO. > Rather to my horror, it seems to flourish also in > emails. Cheers, Grahame. -- Grahame Parish maillistDOTparishATmillersHYPHENwayDOTnet -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:40 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoN7K-00068g-IG-00069m."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:40 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoN7K-00068g-IG; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:35:32 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoN7K-00068g-IG; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:35:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoN7K-000559-Gd; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:35:30 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoN6q-0006il-3T; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:35:00 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BEYt906125 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:34:55 GMT Received: from mail.jtfreesurf.co.uk (mail.jtfreesurf.co.uk [212.9.8.7]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with SMTP id j0BEYsh06118 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:34:54 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from iyonix ([82.112.131.62]) by mail.jtfreesurf.co.uk (Merak 7.6.1) with SMTP id KLA74787 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:34:54 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:36:22 GMT From: michael talibard To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> In-Reply-To: X-Organization: home User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message you wrote: [snip] > faster if you can do a search and replace for the fake paragraph > breaks and remove them which can only be done if the real > paragraph breaks are doubled. > > John Yes, I suppose so. It would be equally easy to search for 'newline, tab' but of course, emails tend to be written with text editors which don't handle tabs very well. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:41 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNCV-0006e4-F0-0006ey."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:41 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNCV-0006e4-F0; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:40:52 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNCV-0006e4-F0; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:40:51 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNCV-0001O4-FV; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:40:51 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNC5-0007Eh-LQ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:40:25 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BEeH208050 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:40:17 GMT Received: from mail.jtfreesurf.co.uk (mail.jtfreesurf.co.uk [212.9.8.7]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with SMTP id j0BEeEr08031 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:40:14 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from iyonix ([82.112.131.62]) by mail.jtfreesurf.co.uk (Merak 7.6.1) with SMTP id KLA74787 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:40:12 -0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:41:40 GMT From: michael talibard To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <6e1e9f2b4d.michael@talibard.com> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> In-Reply-To: <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> X-Organization: home User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> you wrote: > I haven't seen tab-indented paragraphs for years If you don't possess any books, try your local library. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:41 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNFl-0001YH-QR-0001Z9."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:41 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNFl-0001YH-QR; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:44:14 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNFl-0001YH-QR; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:44:13 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNFk-00052b-PD; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:44:12 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNF0-0006lN-Vx; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:43:26 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BEhHt09319 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:43:17 GMT Received: from mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk [212.104.129.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BEhGE09314 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:43:16 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5068D2E32E8 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:43:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 29892-01-54 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:43:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from MartinRPC (unknown [82.152.145.38]) by mra03.ex.eclipse.net.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FB1E2E3315 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:43:13 +0000 (GMT) Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:43:06 GMT From: Martin Devon To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes Message-ID: References: <82799b2b4d.Martin@heleigh.org.uk> In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/4.37) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Virus-Scanned: by Eclipse VIRUSshield at eclipse.net.uk Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) John Pettigrew wrote: > In a previous message, Martin Devon wrote: > > > For DTP ideally one should use an n-dash (ascii 151) as hyphen > > NO NO NO NO NO !!! So would you not distinguish between a hyphen and a minus sign? If writing the Perry-Robertson equation (hyphen) how should I write (ce - cpar) (minus)? Martin -- Martin R. Devon MSc Consulting Engineer Box, Wilts, UK -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:41 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNKX-0005VI-7S-0005WN."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:41 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNKX-0005VI-7S; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:49:10 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNKX-0005VI-7S; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:49:09 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNKW-0004Yc-SH; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:49:09 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNJw-0003qj-BU; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:48:32 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BEmOc12040 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:48:24 GMT Received: from mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BEmN112034 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:48:23 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111144821.QSHG15658.mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:48:21 +0000 Received: from linux.at.home ([81.96.74.55]) by aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111144821.KZM9818.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@linux.at.home> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:48:21 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:48:19 +0000 From: John Pettigrew To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> Mail-Followup-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-Organization: XL Cambridge User-Agent: Gemini/1.45d (Qt/3.3.1) (Linux-i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="726187967--479258704--120363836"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) --726187967--479258704--120363836 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a previous message, michael talibard wrote: > It would be equally easy to search for 'newline, tab' but of course, em= ails > tend to be written with text editors which don't handle tabs very well.= Except that tabs have undefined results in email - they fall outside the simple ASCII characters in the basic format, and many mailreaders won't display them properly. Indeed, a good email client (such as MessPro, whic= h you seem to be using!) will warn you if you try and post an email with tabs i= n... John --=20 John Pettigrew Headstrong Games=20 john@headstrong-games.co.uk Fun : Strategy : Price=20 http://www.headstrong-games.co.uk/ Board games that won't break the ban= k=20 Knossos: escape the ever-changing labyrinth before the Minotaur catches y= ou!=20 --726187967--479258704--120363836 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB4+czp6M/P/S/JWgRAoqwAJ9OCa5zGgg6bFrZKK4KPPGrfzW0qwCeJF1b lx2NggpCUMSxU1m7Zs1zVxI= =Rthx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --726187967--479258704--120363836-- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:42 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNSH-000210-Jt-00021b."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:42 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNSH-000210-Jt; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:57:09 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNSH-000210-Jt; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:57:09 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNSG-0002RZ-Tt; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:57:09 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNRu-0002pL-SZ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:56:46 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BEuXU14782 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:56:33 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BEuVl14770 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:56:31 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoNRd-000ONy-6i for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:56:29 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:56:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2ba07297john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan, Phillip Marsden wrote: > At 12:20 11/01/2005, John Cartmell wrote: > >On 11 Jan, Phillip Marsden wrote: > > > At 00:44 11/01/2005, John Cartmell wrote: > > > > > >[snip] > > > > > > > >I presume that when they ask for plans you're quite happy to > > > >produce them as white lines on a printed blue background... ;-) > > > > > If they are paying the bill... > > > >But in a forum looking at good practice it's not a style you would > >advise using? ;-) > > > >David's right to include underline as an option in Ovation Pro. That > >doesn't mean that any of us need choose to use it. > I couldn't care less about underlining one way or another. I was > responding to your specific point which had wandered off the original > topic of underlining. > You appeared to be saying that a client specifying something that you > considered incorrect practice was stupid (at the least), and that the > client should be forced to comply with your idea of good practice. You > appear to exist in a non-real world and forget that if someone is paying > you to do a job then you do it their way unless you can negotiate with > them to do it another way. If they are adamant that you do it their > way, then you either do it their way or don't work for the client. If I was saying that then my comment: "It's the people doing the specification that need to take note." wouldn't have made sense. Nor would my use of the word "choose" above. If we pretend to have some form of expertise (and if we don't we should be learning) then we should apply good practice. If we're forced to do otherwise then we may be required to balance our good name against commercial reality. Whilst a cheap jobbing brickie may be willing to compromise his trade if paid to build a wall in such a way that it will look bad and be insecure, proud tradesmen with a reputation to consider may decide to give that contract a miss. > This is not a theoretical nicety John, this is real-world stuff. Being rude - there's a word to describe people who will do anything for money. Most of us (thankfully) have a point beyond which we won't pass. For many it won't be underlining text - but for some it might. We're only looking at where you draw the line. (!). Given the choice good designers won't use the feature under normal circumstances - though you can look forward to an article in Qercus where it *will* be used, in a discussion about this very matter. Forced against their better judgement good designers will balance their reputation against commercial reality - but that doesn't change what they would do without the pressure. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:42 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNX6-0000L4-6j-0000M6."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:42 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNX6-0000L4-6j; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:09 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNX6-0000L4-6j; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:08 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNX5-00073W-Qj; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:07 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNWh-0000sq-Bk; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:01:43 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BF1VG16833 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:01:31 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BF1Vw16828 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:01:31 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoNWU-000Psx-8O for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:01:30 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:57:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2ba09627john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan, Phillip Marsden wrote: > if someone is paying you to do a job then you do it their way unless > you can negotiate with them to do it another way Of course. And if they have sense they will listen to the expert. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:43 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNYM-0006SZ-4G-0006TW."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:43 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNYM-0006SZ-4G; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:03:27 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNYM-0006SZ-4G; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:03:26 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNYM-0007is-3O; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:03:26 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNXw-00084Q-8s; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:03:00 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BF2qI17326 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:52 GMT Received: from mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BF2p217315 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:51 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111150249.ULZR22154.mta09-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:49 +0000 Received: from linux.at.home ([81.96.74.55]) by aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050111150249.GVKT769.aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@linux.at.home> for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:49 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:46 +0000 From: John Pettigrew To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes Message-ID: In-Reply-To: References: <82799b2b4d.Martin@heleigh.org.uk> Mail-Followup-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-Organization: XL Cambridge User-Agent: Gemini/1.45d (Qt/3.3.1) (Linux-i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="673375969--2115414537--444682308"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) --673375969--2115414537--444682308 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a previous message, Martin Devon wrote: > John Pettigrew wrote: >=20 > > In a previous message, Martin Devon wro= te: > >=20 > > > For DTP ideally one should use an n-dash (ascii 151) as hyphen > >=20 > > NO NO NO NO NO !!! >=20 > So would you not distinguish between a hyphen and a minus sign? If writ= ing > the Perry-Robertson equation (hyphen) how should I write (ce - cpar) > (minus)? Of course I would--and the correct character to use as a minus sign is...= the minus sign. At a pinch, use an en rule. Never use an en rule (i.e. the gl= yph) as a hyphen (i.e. to perform the function of a hyphen). As I said, there are two different things to think about - function and f= orm. The function can be joining words, breaking words, punctuation or maths. If the function is joining words into compounds or breaking words, the fo= rm to use is the hyphen. If the function is to join words in equal relationship (as in Creutzfeld-= Jacob disease) then the form to use is the en rule. If the function is punctuation--that is, as a text separator--then the fo= rm to use use is an em rule or en rule (depending on house style). If the function is maths then the form to use is a minus sign. The Perry-Robertson equation (an en rule, I suspect, although I'm not fam= iliar with it) would be ce - cpar (minus sign). Most fonts contain different glyphs for these four forms (hyphen, en rule= , em rule and minus sign). They are very distinct visually, although the en ru= le and minus sign are often quite similar. John --=20 John Pettigrew XL Cambridge - contract and freelance editing Biology specialist Molecular biology, genetics, biotechnology john@xl-cambridge.com http://www.xl-cambridge.com/ PGP public key available --673375969--2115414537--444682308 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB4+qXp6M/P/S/JWgRAqEoAJ9wvDsQBagHUR7HP6qKCQQ9Fs5zUwCfe1QJ bFeD01Usdnm/MdEHDNMfo90= =ZHaE -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --673375969--2115414537--444682308-- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:43 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNbt-0000Zb-Gw-0000ad."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:43 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNbt-0000Zb-Gw; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:06 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNbt-0000Zb-Gw; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNbt-000253-0R; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNbR-0003HN-HZ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:06:37 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BF6Wu18588 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:06:32 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BF6VY18581 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:06:31 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoNbL-00010j-6i for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:06:31 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:02:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2ba10900john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_10,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan, michael talibard wrote: > My wife was trained as a secretary in the 60s and so believes in two > spaces ater a full stop. I am an English teacher of similar vintage, > and regard that as an abomination. You're both right but you both need to describe the circumstances in which you apply the rules. > Similarly, the paragraph break made by hitting return twice (rather > than return, tab) is known in my classes as a 'secretarial paragraph' > and is not permitted, except in business letters, where the > secretaries (sadly) have to be allowed to set their own norms. This is a different matter. Again you need to describe the circumstances and one in which I frequently find myself is when laying out work in columns. There a greater need is to get text to line up across the columns and then you have to apply the otherwise deprecated secretarial paragraph. > Rather to my horror, it seems to flourish also in emails. So it does! ;-) -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:43 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNce-0002G6-5X-0002HK."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:43 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNce-0002G6-5X; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:54 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNce-0002G6-5X; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:52 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNce-00027z-EW; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:52 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNc7-0005pB-Cn; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:19 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BF7Da18884 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:13 GMT Received: from ptb-relay03.plus.net (ptb-relay03.plus.net [212.159.14.214]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BF7C618878 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:12 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [80.229.166.59] (helo=dad) by ptb-relay03.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1CoNby-000Pr8-EZ for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:10 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:00 GMT From: Jeremy Brayshaw To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: X-Organization: PressXpress User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.62 (MsgServe/2.05S) (RISC-OS/4.03) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan 2005, Jim Nagel wrote: > On Tue 11 Jan, Martin Devon wrote: > > > I think the Cambridge Certificate in I.T. is quite specific: one space only in a > > proportional font and 2 in a monospaced font. > ... > > Back to underlining:- obviously cutting descenders is ... > > > and what does Cambridge have to say about dashes? my touch-typing > course (in Canada) taught us to type a dash as TWO hyphens, with > no space -- like this. > The Oxford Guide to Style (the new "Hart's Rules") states: "In text, use only a single word space after all sentence punctuation." There are ten pages about dashes in the Oxford Guide, but nowhere can I see it refer to two consecutive dashes, except when it might be used to signify more than one missing letter in a word, where one 'em' dash is used to represent each missing letter. Apart from that, either an 'en' dash or an 'em' dash would be used. Of course, Candian and English styles may vary wildly! As for underlining, the guide says: "Although roman type can be set with an underlining rule, italic type nevertheless should be preferred to underlined type in all circumstances except where the latter is required or uniquely useful" In other word, italicise rather than underline, unless there's a case where italics don't work. Jeremy. -- Jeremy Brayshaw -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:44 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNd7-0003n5-Er-0003o1."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:44 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNd7-0003n5-Er; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:08:22 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNd7-0003n5-Er; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:08:21 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNd7-0003kV-3c; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:08:21 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNca-0003ke-7E; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:48 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BF7jn19061 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:45 GMT Received: from ptb-relay01.plus.net (ptb-relay01.plus.net [212.159.14.212]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BF7i119056 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:44 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [80.229.166.59] (helo=dad) by ptb-relay01.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1CoNcS-0000an-GY for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:40 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:39 GMT From: Jeremy Brayshaw To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <6f7fa12b4d.SoftInfo@pressxpress.co.uk> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> In-Reply-To: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> X-Organization: PressXpress User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.62 (MsgServe/2.05S) (RISC-OS/4.03) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan 2005, michael talibard wrote: > Similarly, the paragraph break made by hitting > return twice (rather than return, tab) is known in > my classes as a 'secretarial paragraph' and is not > permitted, except in business letters, where the > secretaries (sadly) have to be allowed to set their > own norms. > > Rather to my horror, it seems to flourish also in > emails. The Oxford Guide to Style states: "It is common not to indent the first paragraph in each chapter, or the first paragraph following a heading, subheading or line space. In each case, the first line of any subsequent paragraph is indented only 1 em." ... "Alternatively, a line may be left between paragraphs, but this has the disadvantage of failing to show where a paragraph begins at the top of the page" So it looks like either method is right, except a 'tab' will probably take the indent way too far in! (1 em being, of course, the width of the lower-case 'm' character in the font used - probably reasonably approximated by two single spaces in fonts without a variety of spaces to choose from.) The Style Guide itself uses the first of these options - i.e. no indent on the first paragraph, but then no line space between paragraphs but a single 'em' space to start each subsequent paragraph. As for emails, I use the latter - a line space - for the simple reason that otherwise if I amend the text, the word-wrap feature usually joins all my paragraphs together unless there's a line separating them! Jeremy -- Jeremy Brayshaw -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:44 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNpy-0006IQ-MW-0006Jp."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:44 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNpy-0006IQ-MW; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:21:40 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNpy-0006IQ-MW; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:21:38 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNpy-0005pN-OL; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:21:38 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNpf-0007lA-2y; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:21:19 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BFLCr25210 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:21:12 GMT Received: from ptb-relay02.plus.net (ptb-relay02.plus.net [212.159.14.213]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BFLB225204 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:21:11 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [80.229.166.59] (helo=dad) by ptb-relay02.plus.net with esmtp (Exim) id 1CoNpW-000E9G-Hq for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:21:10 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:20:48 GMT From: Jeremy Brayshaw To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <57b3a22b4d.SoftInfo@pressxpress.co.uk> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <6f7fa12b4d.SoftInfo@pressxpress.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6f7fa12b4d.SoftInfo@pressxpress.co.uk> X-Organization: PressXpress User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.62 (MsgServe/2.05S) (RISC-OS/4.03) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan 2005, Jeremy Brayshaw wrote: > (1 em being, of course, the width of the lower-case 'm' character in > the font used To correct myself (before someone else does!), that should be 'upper-case M', not lower! Sorry! -- Jeremy Brayshaw -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:46 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoNzR-0007j8-6f-0007kX."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:46 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoNzR-0007j8-6f; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:31:26 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNzR-0007j8-6f; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:31:25 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoNzQ-00045i-Mj; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:31:24 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoNzF-0006oW-Ha; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:31:13 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BFV5230765 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:31:05 GMT Received: from smtp4.global.net.uk (smtp4.global.net.uk [80.189.92.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BFV4Q30755 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:31:04 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from 223.247.adsl.brightview.com ([80.189.247.223] helo=RTV) by smtp4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1CoNz5-000DBn-Pr for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:31:03 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:32:29 +0000 From: Mik Towse To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> In-Reply-To: <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> X-Organization: Xemik Solutions! Ltd User-Agent: Messenger-Pro 2.62 POPstar/2.05 X-Editor: Zap 1.45, using ZapEmail 0.26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Authenticated-Sender: Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> Grahame Parish wrote: > michael talibard wrote: [snip] > > Similarly, the paragraph break made by hitting return twice (rather than > > return, tab) ISTM that anyone who does that isn't using their document processor properly. Surely, if that's your preferred paragraph separation, you should have set up a 'first-line indent', so you only need to press return. > > is known in my classes as a 'secretarial paragraph' and is not permitted, > > except in business letters, where the secretaries (sadly) have to be > > allowed to set their own norms. It makes good sense in business letters, where you might want to space out/highlight the information. > That sounds the wrong way round to me. Surely a blank line space is > required between paragraphs. It depends on the publication & purpose. > I haven't seen tab-indented paragraphs for years You don't read many novels? ;-) > - word-processing seems to have killed them off altogether, along with the > centred signature block at the bottom of a letter. But to indicate a new > paragraph just by indenting the first line without a line space seems so > wrong and makes readability worse IMHO. It may seem wrong, but it is correct. In general, you should either start a new paragraph indented on the next line, or flush to the left margin with a gap between paragraphs. Altho' some schools think that space /and/ indent are okay together. Technically, it /is/ wrong to double-return a new paragraph, because you should set the 'space after paragraph', but who does. O:-) > > Rather to my horror, it seems to flourish also in emails. But it /is/ correct to use it on emails, where most start a new paragraph 'flush left'. -- Mik Towse * mik.towse@xemik.com * http://www.xemik.co.uk/ My writers' site can be found at: http://www.lexis.org.uk xemik.net - cost effective web hosting : http://xemik.net A wise man can see more from a the bottom of a well than a fool can from a mountain top. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:46 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoOBn-0006v5-FP-0006w8."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:46 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoOBn-0006v5-FP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:44:13 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOBn-0006v5-FP; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:44:11 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOBn-0001yB-Aj; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:44:11 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoOBR-00088X-3v; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:43:49 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BFha503002 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:43:36 GMT Received: from smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.7]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BFhZZ02995 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:43:35 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from Iyonix ([82.34.56.52]) by smtp-out4.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:44:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John M Ward To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:46:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2ba50b6cjohn@acornusers.org> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 Content-Type: text/plain X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2005 15:44:07.0514 (UTC) FILETIME=[62D0ABA0:01C4F7F4] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124>, Phillip Marsden wrote: > At 12:20 11/01/2005, John Cartmell wrote: > >On 11 Jan, Phillip Marsden wrote: > > > At 00:44 11/01/2005, John Cartmell wrote: > > > > > >[snip] > > > > > > > >I presume that when they ask for plans you're quite happy to > > > >produce them as white lines on a printed blue background... > > > >;-) > > > > > If they are paying the bill... That's the biggie in reality, annoying though it can be at times. > >But in a forum looking at good practice it's not a style you would > >advise using? ;-) > > > >David's right to include underline as an option in Ovation Pro. > >That doesn't mean that any of us need choose to use it. This is true, of course, though many professional document designers will not be given a choice in how the finished product will be specified... > You appeared to be saying that a client specifying something that > you considered incorrect practice was stupid (at the least), and > that the client should be forced to comply with your idea of good > practice. You appear to exist in a non-real world and forget that > if someone is paying you to do a job then you do it their way > unless you can negotiate with them to do it another way. Something I have tried a number of times, and have sometimes even succeeded in changing a client's mind. > If they are adamant that you do it their way, then you either do it > their way or don't work for the client. Hmm. Reminds me of the time a pub owner insisted on the spelling "fahitas" on his menu... > This is not a theoretical nicety John, this is real-world stuff. True, though sometimes it really grates (I *know* the correct spelling of "fajitas" for goodness' sake!) -- John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered! Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:46 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoOEe-0001KZ-EL-0001Ll."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:46 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoOEe-0001KZ-EL; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:47:09 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOEe-0001KZ-EL; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:47:08 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOEe-0006rw-7h; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:47:08 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoOEH-0006dZ-65; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:46:45 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BFkeW04098 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:46:40 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BFkdw04095 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:46:39 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoOEA-000Bq3-9b for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:46:39 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:43:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan, Mik Towse wrote: > In article <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> Grahame Parish > wrote: > > michael talibard wrote: > [snip] > > > Similarly, the paragraph break made by hitting return twice (rather > > > than return, tab) > ISTM that anyone who does that isn't using their document processor > properly. Surely, if that's your preferred paragraph separation, you > should have set up a 'first-line indent', so you only need to press > return. Except where you need to line up columns. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:47 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoOHU-0007YI-S5-0007ZW."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:47 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoOHU-0007YI-S5; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:50:06 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOHU-0007YI-S5; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:50:04 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOHU-0000XV-Fo; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:50:04 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoOH7-0003cc-6K; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:49:41 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BFnZQ04960 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:49:35 GMT Received: from smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.9]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BFnZ604952 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:49:35 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from Iyonix ([82.34.56.52]) by smtp-out6.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:50:07 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John M Ward To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:52:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2ba59a49john@acornusers.org> In-Reply-To: <4d2ba09627john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> <4d2ba09627john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 Content-Type: text/plain X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Jan 2005 15:50:07.0350 (UTC) FILETIME=[394B4960:01C4F7F5] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2ba09627john@cartmell.demon.co.uk>, John Cartmell wrote: > On 11 Jan, Phillip Marsden wrote: > > if someone is paying you to do a job then you do it their way > > unless you can negotiate with them to do it another way > Of course. > And if they have sense they will listen to the expert. Some do, some don't. Thankfully I never quite got to the point where I refused to do a job, but there were times when I wavered. In a number of cases (including the "fajitas" instance I quoted elsewhere in this thread) I was supporting another organisation who were involved in promoting/supporting the client in other ways, and I was merely producing the documentation. In these situations I would obviously soft-pedal on my side in order not to make matters awkward for the others who were working hard to do their best for the client. Again, a real-world situation that couldn't be thought of as ideal; but sensible compromise and flexibility always won the day. We did some good stuff between us, that supporting outfit and I! -- John M Ward : RISC OS computing since 1987, now Iyonix-powered! Acorn/RISC OS web page: www.john-ward.org.uk/personal/john/computers -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:47 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoOPK-00069A-Ss-0006Aa."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:47 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoOPK-00069A-Ss; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:58:12 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOPK-00069A-Ss; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:58:10 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOPK-0001A8-Oa; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:58:10 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoOOm-00040s-U8; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:57:36 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BFvSd07380 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:57:28 GMT Received: from galaxy.systems.pipex.net (galaxy.systems.pipex.net [62.241.162.31]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BFvSA07376 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:57:28 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from MARSDEN9.btinternet.com (81-86-166-106.dsl.pipex.com [81.86.166.106]) by galaxy.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08C6EE000319 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:57:27 +0000 (GMT) Message-Id: <6.0.3.0.2.20050111152925.0272b208@217.12.12.124> X-Sender: phillip.marsden@217.12.12.124 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 6.0.3.0 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:36:38 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: Phillip Marsden Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug In-Reply-To: <4d2ba07297john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> <4d2ba07297john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; x-avg-checked=avg-ok-2C1416C3 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) At 14:56 11/01/2005, John Cartmell wrote: >[snip] > > > This is not a theoretical nicety John, this is real-world stuff. > >Being rude - there's a word to describe people who will do anything for >money. Most of us (thankfully) have a point beyond which we won't pass. For >many it won't be underlining text - but for some it might. We're only >looking at where you draw the line. (!). > >Given the choice good designers won't use the feature under normal >circumstances - though you can look forward to an article in Qercus where >it *will* be used, in a discussion about this very matter. Forced against >their better judgement good designers will balance their reputation against >commercial reality - but that doesn't change what they would do without the >pressure. Here we go again John. I can see that this could easily turn into a "Peter Naulls v John Cartmell" type of discussion. The type where you don't address the specific point, but bring points into the discussion which were never mentioned in the first place. Then you jump from point to point, never answering any point in its entirety, I will therefore take the advice that I gave to you at Wakefield some time ago and cease from responding, otherwise it will turn into a nonsensical discussion about everything and nothing. Sayonara. -- Regards, Phillip Marsden. phillip.marsden@btinternet.com -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date: 10/01/2005 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:47 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoOSE-0005bC-6I-0005c8."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:47 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoOSE-0005bC-6I; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:01:12 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOSE-0005bC-6I; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:01:10 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOSE-0005Mz-NS; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:01:10 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoORZ-0000fU-Md; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:00:29 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BG01S08261 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:00:01 GMT Received: from smtp004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.11.35]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with SMTP id j0BG00u08176 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:00:00 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (paul?witheridge@81.105.191.144 with login) by smtp004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jan 2005 15:59:59 -0000 From: Paul Witheridge To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes - and relevance Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:01:20 +0000 Organization: Marlow Message-ID: <58s7u0psjhe6n4ucl4p06eajnaogq050sl@4ax.com> References: In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by svr1.spellings.net id j0BG00u08177 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,HAS_ORGANIZATION,IN_REP_TO, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT_FORTE autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:07:00 GMT, Jeremy Brayshaw wrote: >There are ten pages about dashes in the Oxford Guide, but nowhere can I >see it refer to two consecutive dashes, except when it might be used to >signify more than one missing letter in a word, where one 'em' dash is >used to represent each missing letter. I have also come across the use of a double hyphen in the following context. About eight to ten years ago, I was involved in the production of advertising flyers for the computer company I then worked for. This involved agreeing the text and graphics with those responsible for the product and then interfacing with the graphics design/printing companies. I used to provide these companies with the text in machine readable form (on a floppy) and it was customary to represent em dashes as double hyphens thus "--", which their software converted to em dashes on import of the ASCII text. At the risk of being flamed, I would also like to add that I am not overly worried about the niceties of underlining, numbers of trailing spaces, size of dashes, paragraph spaces and so on. I started using computers to format text in about 1967 and have seen a lot of rules come and go. Most of my career was involved with deeply technical IT support and I would have put up with all kinds of style glitches to have technical manuals that made sense and actually told me what I needed to know. However, what does get me riled, is the posting of endless messages with a subject line of "Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug" but which have nothing to do with that subject. A big thank you to those people who changed the subject line to match the actual topic! -- Paul Witheridge - Marlow, UK -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:48 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoOvq-0001fI-Qo-0001gA."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:48 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoOvq-0001fI-Qo; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:31:47 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOvq-0001fI-Qo; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:31:46 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOvq-0005mz-4a; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:31:46 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoOvY-0002YJ-UJ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:31:28 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BGVGE21202 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:31:16 GMT Received: from smtp4.global.net.uk (smtp4.global.net.uk [80.189.92.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BGVFX21196 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:31:16 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from 223.247.adsl.brightview.com ([80.189.247.223] helo=RTV) by smtp4.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1CoOvL-000F4f-Em for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:31:15 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:32:53 +0000 From: Mik Towse To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> X-Organization: Xemik Solutions! Ltd User-Agent: Messenger-Pro 2.62 POPstar/2.05 X-Editor: Zap 1.45, using ZapEmail 0.26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Authenticated-Sender: Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell wrote: > On 11 Jan, Mik Towse wrote: > > Grahame Parish wrote: > > > michael talibard wrote: > > [snip] > > > > Similarly, the paragraph break made by hitting return twice (rather > > > > than return, tab) > > ISTM that anyone who does that isn't using their document processor > > properly. Surely, if that's your preferred paragraph separation, you > > should have set up a 'first-line indent', so you only need to press > > return. > Except where you need to line up columns. Sorry, John, I don't follow your logic there. Surely that too should be handled by your document processor, (I can't remember if OPro provides this facility because I invariably use Easiwriter for column work) & not fudged by adding double returns. -- Mik Towse * mik.towse@xemik.com * http://www.xemik.co.uk/ My writers' site can be found at: http://www.lexis.org.uk xemik.net - cost effective web hosting : http://xemik.net That's like fluffing the pillows on the Titanic -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:48 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoOx9-0003qe-FN-0003rD."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:48 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoOx9-0003qe-FN; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:33:08 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOx9-0003qe-FN; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:33:07 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoOx9-0006j4-ID; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:33:07 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoOwY-0000mF-PA; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:32:30 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BGWIR21847 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:32:18 GMT Received: from smarthost0.mail.uk.easynet.net (smarthost0.mail.uk.easynet.net [212.135.6.10]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BGWI021823 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:32:18 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from bb-195-172-49-136.ukonline.co.uk ([195.172.49.136] helo=nails.norbins) by smarthost0.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 1CoOwG-000IFH-00 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:32:12 +0000 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:29:04 +0000 (GMT) From: Jim Nagel Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Organization: speaking for myself X-Return-Rcpt-To: jim@abbeypress.net X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.53] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) > On 11 Jan 2005, Jim Nagel wrote: > > and what does Cambridge have to say about dashes? my touch-typing > > course (in Canada) taught us to type a dash as TWO hyphens, with > > no space -- like this. ... On Tue 11 Jan, Jeremy Brayshaw wrote: > > The Oxford Guide to Style (the new "Hart's Rules") states: > "In text, use only a single word space after all sentence punctuation." > > There are ten pages about dashes in the Oxford Guide, but nowhere can I > see it refer to two consecutive dashes, ... > > Of course, Candian and English styles may vary wildly! in my sweet Candian way, i meant on a steam-powered typewriter, where the hyphen was the only character available, we distinguish a long dash from a hyphen by typing the long dash as "--". the same would apply in email, where we have to stick to the standard 128 Ascii characters. methinks the M-dash was always used -- like this -- to set off stuff interjected into a sentence. (M because it's the width of a cap M.) the tradition was no space either side. this changed only recently, because no wordproccer i know is clever enough to know that it is allowed to break a line before or after such an M-dash rather than carry the whole lump unbroken over to the next line. i think that's why the fashion for this usage changed to an N-dash with spaces. i still prefer the M-dash tight up, and i get round the linebreak problem by typing M-dash with spaces either side and then (at least in Impression) searching for "space M-dash" and applying a style (which i call "k" and keep in my default document) that simply sets extreme tracking, to -250. if you drop a text file -- with dashes typed like this -- into either OPro or Impression, they are automagically converted to M-dashes. (just like the software Jeremy Brayshaw mentioned.) the minus sign (character 153) is unique to RiscOS, as far as i know. it's the same width and vertical position as the plus sign, and a Good Thing. it is what it says it is, a minus sign, and shouldnt be used for anything else. i would have used it at the end of the last paragraph if this werent email. the BBC has an annoying habit of using an N-dash in credits and subtitles where it means a simple hyphen. i have often wondered if this is actually in the corporate styleguide or if it's just the ignorant copying the ignorant. -- Jim Nagel -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:48 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoPAu-0005M0-Bt-0005NB."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:48 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoPAu-0005M0-Bt; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:47:22 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoPAu-0005M0-Bt; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:47:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoPAu-00059a-FE; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:47:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoPAS-0007sc-Hp; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:46:52 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BGkeA28232 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:46:40 GMT Received: from smtpq1.home.nl (smtpq1.home.nl [213.51.128.196]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BGkee28226 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:46:40 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.51.128.132] (port=41746 helo=smtp1.home.nl) by smtpq1.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoPAF-0000UP-Qj for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:46:39 +0100 Received: from cp418204-a.dbsch1.nb.home.nl ([84.27.69.179]:55744 helo=padua) by smtp1.home.nl with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoPAD-00064o-GU for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:46:37 +0100 Message-ID: <004301c4f7fd$1bb7bf70$6502a8c0@padua> From: "Tonnie Demarteau" To: References: <82799b2b4d.Martin@heleigh.org.uk> Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:46:15 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On Tuesday, January 11, 2005 4:02 PM "John Pettigrew" wrote: > Most fonts contain different glyphs for these four forms (hyphen, en rule, em > rule and minus sign). They are very distinct visually, although the en rule > and minus sign are often quite similar. in general: hyphen - same width as quilsinglleft and superscript numbers. Position more or same the less as en rule. en rule - width of numbers and currency symbols or half the width of em rule, height and positioning as em rule em rule - in digitally designed fonts: width of design size. That is the underlying grid, used for the font. Height and positioning as horizontal in e or H. minus: height, width and positioning as the horizontal bar of + (plus). Operators like + = - > < have same width. Meaning, in a well designed font you can distinguish several 'groups'. And the four discussed bars all belong to a different 'group'. And can be distinguished - when designed that way in a font. It depends on platform and format of fonts, whether or not all those 4 CAN be available. Tonnie -- Mrs Tonnie Demarteau - the Netherlands -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:49 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoPPS-0000OJ-6i-0000QF."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:49 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoPPS-0000OJ-6i; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:02:23 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoPPS-0000OJ-6i; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:02:22 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoPPR-0001lT-SG; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:02:21 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoPPC-0004nZ-92; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:02:06 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BH1uI01068 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:01:56 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BH1tr01065 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:01:55 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoPP0-000J40-0B for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:01:54 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:58:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2bab99ebjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6.0.3.0.2.20050111152925.0272b208@217.12.12.124> References: <4d29cc8be0john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d29e586d9dfs@ukgateway.net> <4d2a16a24ejohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <411c4e2b4d.steve@helvellyn.stevefryatt.org.uk> <4d2b5277cajohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111095430.02746ad0@217.12.12.124> <4d2b92328djohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111134601.0272e0f0@217.12.12.124> <4d2ba07297john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <6.0.3.0.2.20050111152925.0272b208@217.12.12.124> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan, Phillip Marsden wrote: > The type where you don't address the specific point I'm very happy to discuss any specific point if that's made clear. By e-mail if it's not appropriate to the list - it is getting to the edge. I've not deliberately avoided any question so I'm at a loss to see what you mean but I'm sure you'll get back to me. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:49 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoPPh-00077L-Iu-00078H."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:49 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoPPh-00077L-Iu; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:02:38 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoPPh-00077L-Iu; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:02:37 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoPPh-0004cM-Ig; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:02:37 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoPPJ-0007ks-RN; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:02:13 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BH1up01075 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:01:56 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BH1uu01070 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:01:56 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoPP1-000J40-15 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:01:55 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:00:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan, Mik Towse wrote: > In article <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell wrote: > > On 11 Jan, Mik Towse wrote: > > > Grahame Parish wrote: > > > > michael talibard wrote: > > > [snip] > > > > > Similarly, the paragraph break made by hitting return twice > > > > > (rather than return, tab) > > > ISTM that anyone who does that isn't using their document processor > > > properly. Surely, if that's your preferred paragraph separation, you > > > should have set up a 'first-line indent', so you only need to press > > > return. > > Except where you need to line up columns. > Sorry, John, I don't follow your logic there. Surely that too should be > handled by your document processor, (I can't remember if OPro provides > this facility because I invariably use Easiwriter for column work) & not > fudged by adding double returns. I'd like to have paragraph breaks wider than a simple return but less than two returns. Ovation Pro allows me to set this up but then, if I use two or more columns on a page, the lines don't 'line up' across the page. It's a question of which convention you want to break. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:50 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoPUH-0005nX-Sd-0005oH."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:50 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoPUH-0005nX-Sd; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:07:22 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoPUH-0005nX-Sd; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:07:21 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoPUH-0004XK-MA; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:07:21 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoPU2-0006Hz-4G; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:07:06 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BH6vK02849 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:06:57 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BH6vJ02845 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:06:57 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoPTs-000KQy-1a for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:06:56 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:03:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining -- and dashes Message-ID: <4d2bac199cjohn@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan, Jim Nagel wrote: > i still prefer the M-dash tight up, and i get round the linebreak > problem by typing M-dash with spaces either side and then (at least in > Impression) searching for "space M-dash" and applying a style (which i > call "k" and keep in my default document) that simply sets extreme > tracking, to -250. I have experimented with M-dashes with a space at the leading side of an opening M-dash and at the end of a closing M-dash. I'm not 100% convinced that it works but it does wrap OK. -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:51 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoQDA-00059k-HJ-0005Al."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:51 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoQDA-00059k-HJ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:53:45 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoQDA-00059k-HJ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:53:44 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoQDA-0000Ua-61; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:53:44 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoQCq-0000Yi-D3; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:53:24 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BHrDe17822 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:53:13 GMT Received: from imo-m26.mx.aol.com (imo-m26.mx.aol.com [64.12.137.7]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BHrCj17809 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:53:12 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from Tomhopley@aol.com by imo-m26.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v37_r3.8.) id 3.1e2.32d611a1 (4206) for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:53:05 -0500 (EST) From: Message-ID: <1e2.32d611a1.2f156c81@aol.com> Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 12:53:05 EST Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="part1_1e2.32d611a1.2f156c81_boundary" X-Mailer: 7.0 for Windows sub 540 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-0.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_20,HTML_10_20,HTML_MESSAGE,HTML_TAG_BALANCE_HTML, MIME_LONG_LINE_QP,NO_REAL_NAME,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) --part1_1e2.32d611a1.2f156c81_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In a message dated 10/01/2005 00:59:51 GMT Standard Time, john@cartmell.demon.co.uk writes: > > BTW The Oxford Manual of Style advises that underlining should only be used > where you are copying the style of a document that you are quoting and also > notes that some editors use underline where house rules dictate that a > phrase should be italicised for two reasons. > Now back to the real world.... Before downloading this thread I had just used underlining, but I think it's justified (forgive the pun). Printing a couple of sticky labels for the wheelie bins. How else do you prevent sixty-six's bins going to ninety-nine? (Rhetorical question - not worth another thread.) TomH --part1_1e2.32d611a1.2f156c81_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a message dated 10/01/2005 00:59= :51 GMT Standard Time, john@cartmell.demon.co.uk writes:



BTW The Oxford Manual of Style advises that underlining should only be used<= BR> where you are copying the style of a document that you are quoting and also<= BR> notes that some editors use underline where house rules dictate that a
phrase should be italicised for two reasons.


Now back to the real world....
Before downloading this thread I had just used underlining, but I think it's= justified (forgive the pun).
Printing a couple of sticky labels for the wheelie bins. How else do you pre= vent sixty-six's bins going to ninety-nine?
(Rhetorical question - not worth another thread.)
TomH --part1_1e2.32d611a1.2f156c81_boundary-- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:55 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoShd-0002SK-J8-0002UD."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:55 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoShd-0002SK-J8; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:33:22 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoShd-0002SK-J8; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:33:21 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoShd-0000rh-Nj; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:33:21 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoSh7-00059x-CU; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:32:49 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0BKWcY26475 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:32:38 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0BKWbH26471 for ; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:32:37 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from cartmell.demon.co.uk ([83.104.47.124]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoSgv-0002kx-0R for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:32:37 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: John Cartmell To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:32:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Ovation Pro for Windows - nasty bug Message-ID: <4d2bbf3654john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <1e2.32d611a1.2f156c81@aol.com> References: <1e2.32d611a1.2f156c81@aol.com> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/4.02) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 11 Jan, wrote: > In a message dated 10/01/2005 00:59:51 GMT Standard Time, > john@cartmell.demon.co.uk writes: > > > > BTW The Oxford Manual of Style advises that underlining should only be > > used where you are copying the style of a document that you are > > quoting and also notes that some editors use underline where house > > rules dictate that a phrase should be italicised for two reasons. > > > Now back to the real world.... Before downloading this thread I had just > used underlining, but I think it's justified (forgive the pun). > Printing a couple of sticky labels for the wheelie bins. How else do you > prevent sixty-six's bins going to ninety-nine? (Rhetorical question - > not worth another thread.) 66 [large print] sixty-six [small print] And stick it on the wheelie-bin the right way up! ;-) -- John Cartmell john@ followed by finnybank.com FAX +44 (0)8700-519-527 Qercus magazine & FD Games www.finnybank.com www.acornuser.com Qercus - a fusion of Acorn Publisher & Acorn User magazines -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:57 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoXjo-0003oT-SE-0003p5."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:57 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoXjo-0003oT-SE; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:55:57 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoXjo-0003oT-SE; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:55:56 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoXjo-0003aq-I3; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:55:56 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoXjX-0006g4-6w; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:55:39 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0C1tJO31377 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:55:19 GMT Received: from anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.89]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0C1tJH31374 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:55:19 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-31.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoXiL-00019C-3F for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 01:54:25 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 00:06:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2bd2d4fbJeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article , michael talibard wrote: > In message you wrote: > [snip] > > faster if you can do a search and replace for the fake paragraph > > breaks and remove them which can only be done if the real > > paragraph breaks are doubled. > > > John > Yes, I suppose so. It would be equally easy to search for 'newline, > tab' but of course, emails tend to be written with text editors > which don't handle tabs very well. The concept of "newline" doesn't even exist on some computers - eg IBM mainframes with files which are line/record-orientated. -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:58 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoerD-00048f-O0-00049X."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:58 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoerD-00048f-O0; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:32:04 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoerD-00048f-O0; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:32:03 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoerD-0001dk-81; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:32:03 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Coeqw-0005hS-44; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:31:46 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0C9VPT05237 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:31:25 GMT Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-05.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.26]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0C9VPI05214 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:31:25 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost.com (194.230.9.182) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.0.036) id 41E38E940002D1D0 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:31:24 +0100 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:08:09 GMT From: JMAH van Vredenburch To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.04-pre2 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,DATE_IN_PAST_06_12,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION, IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,RCVD_FAKE_HELO_DOTCOM, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In message <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > On 11 Jan, Mik Towse wrote: > > In article <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> John Cartmell wrote: > > > On 11 Jan, Mik Towse wrote: > > > > Grahame Parish wrote: snip some > > I'd like to have paragraph breaks wider than a simple return but less than > two returns. Ovation Pro allows me to set this up but then, if I use two or > more columns on a page, the lines don't 'line up' across the page. It's a > question of which convention you want to break. They can line up. In 'Edit style -> Format' select "Lock to grid". JMvV -- Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:58 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoerL-0003dV-Ln-0003e6."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:58 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoerL-0003dV-Ln; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:32:12 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoerL-0003dV-Ln; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:32:11 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoerL-0000IB-DL; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:32:11 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Coeqv-0005D9-Ox; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:31:45 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0C9VQn05255 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:31:26 GMT Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-05.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.26]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0C9VQI05243 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:31:26 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost.com (194.230.9.182) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.0.036) id 41E38E940002D1D3 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:31:26 +0100 Date: Tue, 11 Jan 2005 23:17:38 GMT From: JMAH van Vredenburch To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: <575bce2b4d.janvred@smile.ch> References: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.04-pre2 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,DATE_IN_PAST_06_12,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION, IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,RCVD_FAKE_HELO_DOTCOM, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In message you wrote: > Leader strings in OPro baffle me! What am I doing wrong? (OPro 2.75 on > RISC OS 5.) I guess this has been discussed before... Is there an > archive I can check? > > Nothing I enter in the 'Tab leader' field in the 'Tabs' dialogue box > is retained when the box is closed, and the string does not appear > either when I try to apply a leader string in a style definition, or > from . Did you possibly forget to select the specific tab (it is then coloured red) before entering the leader string? JMvV -- Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:59 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cog4j-0000Sa-4P-0000U1."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:59 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cog4j-0000Sa-4P; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:50:06 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cog4j-0000Sa-4P; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:50:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cog4i-0007bn-Vl; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:50:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cog4Q-0005Mf-MA; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:49:46 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CAnYK31307 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:49:34 GMT Received: from smtp.argonet.co.uk (centipede.freedom2.net [213.161.67.201]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CAnXp31300 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:49:33 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.116.52.176] (helo=213.116.52.176) by smtp.argonet.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cog2v-0000M5-Cd for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:48:13 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Richard Travers To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:16:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2c0aad80richto@argonet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> User-Agent: Pluto/2.04e (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net>, Grahame Parish wrote: > That sounds the wrong way round to me. Surely a blank line space is > required between paragraphs. I haven't seen tab-indented paragraphs for > years - word-processing seems to have killed them off altogether, along > with the centred signature block at the bottom of a letter. But to > indicate a new paragraph just by indenting the first line without a line > space seems so wrong and makes readability worse IMHO. I'm sorry, Grahame, but I refuse to believe that you haven't read a newspaper, magazine or book 'for years'. The standard rule for all published material is no indent for the first paragraph in a section or chapter, then first line indents for each subsequent paragraph. Certainly no blank lines between paragraphs. Commercial correspondence, however, seems to have adopted the no-indent-and-blank-line-between-paras approach. I guess which approach is easier to read is a matter of personal judgement. Personally I have no trouble with either, although a commercial letter with lots of short paragraphs can be quite difficult to read, as would be a page of dialogue in a novel if each paragraph was separated by a blank line. Of course, all design 'rules' are there to be broken if appropriate. The prime consideration is always to communicate information to the reader as clearly as possible. Richard -- Richard Travers richto@argonet.co.uk Truro, Cornwall 01872 271125 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:56:59 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cog4r-0004ad-9F-0004bM."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:56:59 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cog4r-0004ad-9F; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:50:14 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cog4r-0004ad-9F; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:50:13 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cog4r-0006he-MW; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:50:13 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cog4Q-0000BE-So; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:49:46 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CAnVN31281 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:49:31 GMT Received: from smtp.argonet.co.uk (centipede.freedom2.net [213.161.67.201]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CAnVH31272 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:49:31 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.116.52.176] (helo=213.116.52.176) by smtp.argonet.co.uk with smtp (Exim 4.20) id 1Cog2s-0000M5-NM for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 10:48:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Richard Travers To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 09:56:29 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2c08d857richto@argonet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> User-Agent: Pluto/2.04e (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net>, Grahame Parish wrote: > I haven't seen tab-indented paragraphs for > years - word-processing seems to have killed them off altogether, along > with the centred signature block at the bottom of a letter. I am sorry, Grahame, but I refuse to believe that you haven't read a book, magazine or newspaper 'for years'. The standard rule is no indent for the first paragraph, then indents for the start of each subsequent paragraph, and certainly no blank lines between paras. Richard -- Richard Travers richto@argonet.co.uk Truro, Cornwall 01872 271125 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:57:00 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CogMB-0002ek-8l-0002gB."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:57:00 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CogMB-0002ek-8l; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:08:09 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CogMB-0002ek-8l; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:08:07 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CogMB-0001eo-Ez; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:08:07 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CogLx-00016m-Lf; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:07:53 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CB7eO05449 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:07:40 GMT Received: from smtp.argonet.co.uk (centipede.freedom2.net [213.161.67.201]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CB7eD05444 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:07:40 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.161.75.156] (helo=[213.161.75.156]) by smtp.argonet.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.20) id 1CogKS-0000m0-Ud for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:06:20 +0000 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v619) In-Reply-To: <4d2c0aad80richto@argonet.co.uk> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4d2c0aad80richto@argonet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: <29A4AFFA-648A-11D9-B21F-000D936BDC4E@vigay.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Paul Vigay Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 11:07:35 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.619) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,HTML_00_10,HTML_MESSAGE, IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT_APPLEMAIL autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 12 Jan 2005, at 10:16am, Richard Travers wrote: > I guess which approach is easier to read is a matter of personal > judgement. > Personally I have no trouble with either, although a commercial letter > with > lots of short paragraphs can be quite difficult to read, as would be a > page > of dialogue in a novel if each paragraph was separated by a blank line. I agree. When writing a novel, I'd say you should have no blank lines and indented paragraphs. However, when reading things on screen, I prefer to go for clarity so I tend to put spaces between paragraphs on websites and in emails. A website will look too cluttered if you don't have the odd line break in it, The difference here is that websites have no concept of linefeeds or spaces (unless you explicitly use

tags) so if the user resizes the window, all the text will juggle around and redraw the page. That's one major difference to the printed page. -- Paul Vigay __\\|//__ Life. (` o-o ') the Universe --- http://www.vigay.com -----------ooO-(_)-Ooo------- & Everything -------- Posted using a RISC OS powered computer - 100% immune to all email viruses. (email IS genuine - to fool junkmailers!) -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:57:02 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CojLT-00009r-CX-0000Aw."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:57:02 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CojLT-00009r-CX; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:36 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CojLT-00009r-CX; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CojLT-0004cb-Kq; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CojLF-00048F-SW; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:21 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CEJ4e12280 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:04 GMT Received: from anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.86]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CEJ3812274 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:03 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CojKo-000DEb-LZ for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:16:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article , JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > They can line up. In 'Edit style -> Format' select "Lock to grid". How can that work at the same time as the gap between paragraphs being - say - 1.5 lines? > -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:57:02 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CojLZ-0001am-Iv-0001bb."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:57:02 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CojLZ-0001am-Iv; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:42 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CojLZ-0001am-Iv; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:41 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CojLZ-0007Kf-Mn; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:41 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CojLF-00004r-R2; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:21 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CEJ5012290 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:05 GMT Received: from anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.86]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CEJ5512286 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:05 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CojKx-000DEb-L6 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:19:04 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:18:11 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2c20cdf1Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <29A4AFFA-648A-11D9-B21F-000D936BDC4E@vigay.com> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4d2c0aad80richto@argonet.co.uk> <29A4AFFA-648A-11D9-B21F-000D936BDC4E@vigay.com> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <29A4AFFA-648A-11D9-B21F-000D936BDC4E@vigay.com>, Paul Vigay wrote: > I agree. When writing a novel, I'd say you should have no blank lines > and indented paragraphs. There's an argument that says that some paragraph breaks are more important than others - if you like minor breaks might not have a blank line, but major ones would. -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 16:57:02 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cojpc-0001TQ-Lt-0001V2."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 16:57:02 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cojpc-0001TQ-Lt; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:45 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cojpc-0001TQ-Lt; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:44 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cojpc-0000F1-DG; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:44 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CojpN-0005lG-Hi; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:29 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CEoLW26536 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:21 GMT Received: from mta13-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CEoLq26530 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:21 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta13-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050112145011.URQG10495.mta13-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:11 +0000 Received: from linux.at.home ([81.96.74.55]) by aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050112145011.UDBM769.aamta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@linux.at.home> for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:11 +0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:49:24 +0000 From: John Pettigrew To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-Organization: XL Cambridge User-Agent: Gemini/1.45d (Qt/3.3.1) (Linux-i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="255188741--1394891028--840436509"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) --255188741--1394891028--840436509 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a previous message, Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote:= > In article , > JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: >=20 > > They can line up. In 'Edit style -> Format' select "Lock to grid". >=20 > How can that work at the same time as the gap between paragraphs being = - say > - 1.5 lines? It doesn't - if you intend to lock to the grid (and hence have all text l= ines lining up) then you have to design your styles around that, and only have= whole-line spacings. If you try, the Lock feature will over-ride your sty= les. John --=20 John Pettigrew Headstrong Games=20 john@headstrong-games.co.uk Fun : Strategy : Price=20 http://www.headstrong-games.co.uk/ Board games that won't break the ban= k=20 Knossos: escape the ever-changing labyrinth before the Minotaur catches y= ou!=20 --255188741--1394891028--840436509 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB5Tj0p6M/P/S/JWgRAtjwAJ9NK+gfN7vb4Veb6Iof4ND6d6FR3gCgm5Y3 FIb42EWa4vXJZgj/oLtPMNg= =/Wo0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --255188741--1394891028--840436509-- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 18:35:23 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1ConEn-0002Kj-8s-0002LV."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:35:23 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1ConEn-0002Kj-8s; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:28:58 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConEn-0002Kj-8s; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:28:57 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConEn-0001vP-Hd; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:28:57 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ConEM-0003Ik-1n; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:28:30 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CISB906123 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:28:11 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CISAX06101 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:28:10 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1ConE0-000CVW-Fo for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:28:10 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:59:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article , John Pettigrew wrote: > > In article , > > JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > > > > > They can line up. In 'Edit style -> Format' select "Lock to grid". > > > > How can that work at the same time as the gap between paragraphs > > being - say - 1.5 lines? > It doesn't - if you intend to lock to the grid (and hence have all > text lines lining up) then you have to design your styles around > that, and only have whole-line spacings. If you try, the Lock feature > will over-ride your styles. Well JMAH... seems to have missed the point that John Carmell made in the first place about wanting funny sized gaps. -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 18:45:23 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1ConRp-0004Ur-PM-0004Vo."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:45:23 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1ConRp-0004Ur-PM; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:42:27 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConRp-0004Ur-PM; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:42:25 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConRp-000718-Ll; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:42:25 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ConRV-0007jB-UE; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:42:05 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CIg0711298 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:42:00 GMT Received: from mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CIfxU11285 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:41:59 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050112184154.MQAA19851.mta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:41:54 +0000 Received: from Iyo ([80.0.194.216]) by aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050112184154.XAXR9818.aamta03-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@Iyo> for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:41:54 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Grahame Parish To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:41:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2c38e45bmaillist.parish@millers-way.net> In-Reply-To: <4d2c0aad80richto@argonet.co.uk> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4d2c0aad80richto@argonet.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/5.08) POPstar/2.05 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <4d2c0aad80richto@argonet.co.uk>, Richard Travers wrote: > In article <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net>, Grahame Parish > wrote: > > That sounds the wrong way round to me. Surely a blank line space is > > required between paragraphs. I haven't seen tab-indented paragraphs > > for years - word-processing seems to have killed them off altogether, > > along with the centred signature block at the bottom of a letter. But > > to indicate a new paragraph just by indenting the first line without a > > line space seems so wrong and makes readability worse IMHO. > I'm sorry, Grahame, but I refuse to believe that you haven't read a > newspaper, magazine or book 'for years'. The standard rule for all > published material is no indent for the first paragraph in a section or > chapter, then first line indents for each subsequent paragraph. > Certainly no blank lines between paragraphs. Just checked the book I'm currently reading (Carpe Jugulum) - you're right - I just haven't noticed it! I must admit I don't tend to think of books as 'documents' though. I haven't bought a newspaper in 25 years - can't stand the damned things! They wouldn't be so bad if they actually had news and not opinions in them. > Commercial correspondence, however, seems to have adopted the > no-indent-and-blank-line-between-paras approach. This is the format I mostly see - business letters, technical manuals and system details and specifications. [snip] > Richard Cheers, Grahame. -- Grahame Parish maillistDOTparishATmillersHYPHENwayDOTnet -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 18:45:23 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1ConTg-0004g4-5N-0004h3."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:45:23 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1ConTg-0004g4-5N; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:44:22 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConTg-0004g4-5N; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:44:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConTg-0007ni-Ew; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:44:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ConTO-0000Cu-EF; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:44:02 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CIhwC11753 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:43:58 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CIhvZ11750 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:43:57 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1ConTJ-000MIS-1P for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:43:57 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:42:53 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Speeding up zip file updates References: <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com> <4d2b42fb1cdfs@ukgateway.net> <3685452b4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3685452b4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >> > How can I speed up the process of refreshing the zip archives? >> > Should/could I set up an obey file to run outside the desktop e.g. *copy >> > x backups.x/zip sort of thing? Some points; (1) make sure you have the latest version of SparkFS and it is configured to not close archives between file operations on them (see ReadMe) (2) Use 'no compression' for Zip files (3) Use Zip strength to turn down the compression. (4) Give SparkFS enough work space otherwise files will start being copied to scrap files - enough memory to hold your largest file + enough memory for the archive catalogue. >Timings are for a 13 M Sprite file with max workspace: > Zipper (As is) 28 sec 4 Mbyte There is an overhead attached to using a filing system to access an archive. Once I had a look at the actual compression times of my code and others, and came to the conclusion there was not much to choose (what motivated that was the problem of why PCs are so much faster than ARM machines at zipping). John Kortinck's PackdDir is the fastest archiver as far as I know. In my tests it used to beat *copy which is quite something. Hmm. a single large file should only test compression - it depends, but sometimes the problem with backup is handling lots of small files. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 18:55:23 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1ConUw-0006ek-NF-0006h7."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:55:23 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1ConUw-0006ek-NF; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:45:39 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConUw-0006ek-NF; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:45:38 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConUv-0001mY-W8; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:45:38 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ConUj-0000W3-83; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:45:25 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CIjJ312052 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:45:19 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CIjIw12046 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:45:18 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1ConUc-000MVM-14 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:45:18 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:44:09 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] sprites refuse to import References: <1b06c02a4d.martin@bach.planiverse.com> In-Reply-To: <1b06c02a4d.martin@bach.planiverse.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >> >hm. fraid so. i have dug out old PlingScan 1.18, after doing >> >"quit all" on ImageFS. dropped the problem JPeg into 1.18 and >> >there's now no problem saving as sprite into Artworks. >> >there does seem to be a problem here with 1.21. >> 1.21 may be configured differently to 1.18. >The key is a "Force new format" option if there is such a thing. ArtWorks >only loads "new format" sprites with 32k or 16M colours. For sprites with >256 colours or less it insits on the "old format" (RISC OS 3.1 style >sprites). This is a known limitation in ArtWorks. > Thanks, very helpful. DPScan (Sprite Choices) does let you configure if you want new or old format sprites. So that sounds like the solution. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 18:55:23 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1ConYy-0005Qi-B1-0005Ro."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:55:23 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1ConYy-0005Qi-B1; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:49 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConYy-0005Qi-B1; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:48 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConYy-0003bL-7s; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:48 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1ConYe-000640-GQ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:28 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CInMM12970 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:22 GMT Received: from anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.86]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CInMx12966 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:22 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1ConYX-0001eT-MQ for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:49:22 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:48:12 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) One comment the 'fluff' applet will perform all sorts of tidying up like taking out double spaces and combining double hyphens into en dashes and so on. See the Help file for a list. Minus is no longer unique to RISC OS. In Unicode mode Windows supports it, so your Ovation documents taken to Windows will work correctly. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 19:05:24 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1ConkC-0004XZ-Bl-0004Y2."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:05:24 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1ConkC-0004XZ-Bl; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:01:25 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConkC-0004XZ-Bl; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:01:24 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1ConkC-0001dh-F3; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:01:24 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Conjz-0001xD-G0; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:01:11 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CJ10016651 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:01:00 GMT Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-08.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.43]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CJ0xh16647 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:01:00 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost.com (194.230.8.39) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.0.036) id 41E392030004408F for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:00:59 +0100 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 17:09:23 GMT From: JMAH van Vredenburch To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <737a302c4d.janvred@smile.ch> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.04-pre2 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, RCVD_FAKE_HELO_DOTCOM,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In message <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > In article , > JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > > > They can line up. In 'Edit style -> Format' select "Lock to grid". > > How can that work at the same time as the gap between paragraphs being > - say - 1.5 lines? That is impossible. But at least the main body of the text in a paragraph will line up. JMvV -- Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 19:25:25 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Coo49-0001sk-ST-0001tA."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:25:25 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Coo49-0001sk-ST; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:22:02 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Coo49-0001sk-ST; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:22:01 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Coo49-00053i-Kb; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:22:01 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Coo3p-0001RL-W2; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:21:41 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CJLZX21637 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:21:35 GMT Received: from anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.86]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CJLYc21634 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:21:34 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from edencroft2.demon.co.uk ([194.222.220.137] helo=Jeremy) by anchor-post-36.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Coo3h-00067w-MT for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:21:34 +0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 18:27:02 GMT From: Jeremy Roberts To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: <4996372c4d.fjr@edencroft2.demon.co.uk> References: <575bce2b4d.janvred@smile.ch> In-Reply-To: <575bce2b4d.janvred@smile.ch> X-Organization: Eden Croft User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13S) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message <575bce2b4d.janvred@smile.ch> you wrote: > Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > In message you wrote: > > > Leader strings in OPro baffle me! What am I doing wrong? (OPro 2.75 on > > RISC OS 5.) I guess this has been discussed before... Is there an > > archive I can check? > > > > Nothing I enter in the 'Tab leader' field in the 'Tabs' dialogue box > > is retained when the box is closed, and the string does not appear > > either when I try to apply a leader string in a style definition, or > > from . > > Did you possibly forget to select the specific tab (it is then coloured > red) before entering the leader string? > > JMvV > > -- > Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch Many thanks - In answer to your query, not sure... but this gave me some ideas to try, and I'm now more sure of what I'm doing - some successful leadered tabs appearing at last! On a related matter, can you tell me why, if I open a new OPro document, and simple create a few tabs across the first line with , obviously in Bodytext style, the tabs are there alright - you can see them with "view invisibles" - BUT if I open the tab ruler with either , or via "edit styles" etc., then NO tabs are shown in the tab ruler for me to play with? Baffled! Cheers, JR -- Jeremy Roberts Ahhhhh... RISC OS and the Iyonix: Now THAT's computing - simple - elegant - productive - AND a no-M$oft zone! -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 19:45:26 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CooJb-0002B8-9r-0002Bj."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:45:26 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CooJb-0002B8-9r; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:37:59 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CooJb-0002B8-9r; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:37:59 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CooJa-0006bk-QZ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:37:58 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CooJO-0007qX-3a; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:37:46 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CJba025648 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:37:36 GMT Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-06.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.42]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CJbZT25640 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:37:35 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost.com (194.230.225.225) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.0.036) id 41E38F2400059BB3 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:37:34 +0100 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:21:29 GMT From: JMAH van Vredenburch To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.04-pre2 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, RCVD_FAKE_HELO_DOTCOM,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In message <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > In article , > John Pettigrew wrote: > > > In article , > > > JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > > > > > > > They can line up. In 'Edit style -> Format' select "Lock to grid". > > > > > > How can that work at the same time as the gap between paragraphs > > > being - say - 1.5 lines? > > > It doesn't - if you intend to lock to the grid (and hence have all > > text lines lining up) then you have to design your styles around > > that, and only have whole-line spacings. If you try, the Lock feature > > will over-ride your styles. > > Well JMAH... seems to have missed the point that John Carmell made in > the first place about wanting funny sized gaps. Funny? In the case of multi-column frame I agree. But otherwise using say 1.5 as a gap between main paragraphs is quite common. Anyway, what John Carmell wants is technically impossible. It is as squeezing a size 9 foot in a size 6 shoe. I know, some folks try/tried to do that... (Legally forbidden nowadays.) JohnvV -- Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 20:05:27 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoodW-000178-6w-00017n."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:05:27 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoodW-000178-6w; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:58:35 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoodW-000178-6w; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:58:34 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoodV-00021j-VV; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:58:34 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoodL-0000Ui-0m; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:58:23 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CJwCM29734 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:58:12 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CJwCs29728 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:58:12 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Cood9-000P6Y-EX for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:58:11 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 19:56:36 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. References: <575bce2b4d.janvred@smile.ch> <4996372c4d.fjr@edencroft2.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4996372c4d.fjr@edencroft2.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >them with "view invisibles" - BUT if I open the tab ruler with either >, or via "edit styles" etc., then NO tabs are shown in the >tab ruler for me to play with? Baffled! There are default tab stops every 10 mm after the last tab stop you define on the ruler. These are not shown on the ruler. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 20:25:28 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoowY-0003kP-Er-0003lK."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:25:28 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoowY-0003kP-Er; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:18:15 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoowY-0003kP-Er; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:18:14 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoowY-00000S-DG; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:18:14 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoowH-0007Xe-PK; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:17:57 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CKHkw01391 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:17:46 GMT Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CKHkO01387 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:17:46 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Coow6-0008Nz-9h for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:17:46 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:16:27 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >From: Arnold van der Heijden > I'll be interested to hear if this is useful. Yes, I think it is very useful. Allthough one of the subscibers of the mailinglist advised me to beat the hell out of people who provide me with pdf, I think that is not a realistic view. In (our) world of the communication- offices everybody is working with certified pdf and sending them over the net. More and more we get advertisements for our printed magazines in pdf and it's always a puzzle to convert them in the right way so that we can import them into Ovation. So how handy it would be to place pdf directly in a Ovationframe. Transpdf does a good job, but perhaps I misunderstand something. When I place a A4-pdf of 350 Kb in a frame at say 80% scaling the print-output is about 75 Mb in a bad (bitmapped) quality. So probably Ovation is printing the preview allthough I don't understand why the file has to be so big then. Scaling it back (in Ovation) reduces the filesize (and speedens up printing in a better quality). What happens here? Of course we want our pdf normally at 100%. Thanks for the effort. Arnold -- Arnold Tekst & Uitleg Schaijk Netherlands op www.uitleg.nl Dienblad op www.dienblad.nl / Landerdsite op www.landerd.net Telefoon 0486-463112 / Fax 0486-463537 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 21:05:30 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CopZU-0007Hb-HF-0007IT."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:05:30 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CopZU-0007Hb-HF; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:58:29 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CopZU-0007Hb-HF; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:58:28 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CopZU-0007id-6O; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:58:28 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CopZE-00073E-Ip; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:58:12 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CKw4V11087 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:58:04 GMT Received: from astro.systems.pipex.net (astro.systems.pipex.net [62.241.163.6]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CKw3u11084 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:58:03 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from RiscPC (81-178-151-127.dsl.pipex.com [81.178.151.127]) by astro.systems.pipex.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A1A2E00021B for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:58:03 +0000 (GMT) MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Steven Pampling To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:35:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Re: Speeding up zip file updates Message-ID: <4d2c4353b8steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com> In-Reply-To: References: <6f0e352b4d.pbready@ntlworld.com> <4d2b42fb1cdfs@ukgateway.net> <3685452b4d.tim@south-frm.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/2.05-a1 (RISC-OS/4.02) POPstar/2.04-pre2 Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On 12 Jan, David Pilling wrote: > John Kortinck's PackdDir is the fastest archiver as far as I know. In my > tests it used to beat *copy which is quite something. But there's a massive difference in performance of SparkFS and PackDir if you're using an Iyonix. SparkFS does the job and PackDir doesn't at all. This being mainly to do with JK... -- Steve Pampling -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 21:35:32 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Coq30-0006Fh-80-0006GD."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:35:32 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Coq30-0006Fh-80; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:28:59 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Coq30-0006Fh-80; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:28:58 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Coq30-0004AC-9B; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:28:58 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Coq2e-0003MY-Pv; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:28:36 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CLSH816533 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:28:17 GMT Received: from queue01-winn.mailhost.ntl.com (mailhost.ntl.com [212.250.162.8]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CLSH916530 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:28:17 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com ([212.250.162.8]) by mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050112145055.RJDH24912.mta05-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com> for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:55 +0000 Received: from linux.at.home ([81.96.74.55]) by aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com with ESMTP id <20050112145054.HNYW7419.aamta08-winn.mailhost.ntl.com@linux.at.home> for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:54 +0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 14:50:52 +0000 From: John Pettigrew To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4d2c20cdf1Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4d2c0aad80richto@argonet.co.uk> <29A4AFFA-648A-11D9-B21F-000D936BDC4E@vigay.com> <4d2c20cdf1Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> Mail-Followup-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-Organization: XL Cambridge User-Agent: Gemini/1.45d (Qt/3.3.1) (Linux-i686) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="1300036321--586443374--40316190"; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.6 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) --1300036321--586443374--40316190 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In a previous message, Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote:= > There's an argument that says that some paragraph breaks are more impor= tant > than others - if you like minor breaks might not have a blank line, but= > major ones would. This isn't a matter of paragraph breaks, though, but of section breaks. T= he best-known exponent of this is probably Terry Pratchett, who didn't use chapters for any of the famous Discworld novels until the latest three or= four. Instead, he breaks up his text with blank lines between scene chang= es. John --=20 John Pettigrew Headstrong Games=20 john@headstrong-games.co.uk Fun : Strategy : Price=20 http://www.headstrong-games.co.uk/ Board games that won't break the ban= k=20 Knossos: escape the ever-changing labyrinth before the Minotaur catches y= ou!=20 --1300036321--586443374--40316190 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQBB5TlMp6M/P/S/JWgRAnGNAKCG1DPYCBJ763QI5UTMfhum9JJYjQCeKsGR Y8UL8ULfigir6MR/2T2uq0k= =l/yD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1300036321--586443374--40316190-- -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 21:45:32 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoqDY-0006Nm-5S-0006Ob."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:45:32 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoqDY-0006Nm-5S; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:39:53 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoqDY-0006Nm-5S; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:39:52 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoqDY-0006vT-GZ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:39:52 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoqDF-0006Jl-Hf; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:39:33 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CLdRT21511 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:39:27 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CLdRY21508 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:39:27 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoqD8-000GrV-8U for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:39:26 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:38:09 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >Transpdf does a good job, but perhaps I misunderstand something. When I >place a A4-pdf of 350 Kb in a frame at say 80% scaling the print-output >is about 75 Mb in a bad (bitmapped) quality. So probably Ovation is >printing the preview allthough I don't understand why the file has to >be so big then. Scaling it back (in Ovation) reduces the filesize (and >speedens up printing in a better quality). What happens here? Of course >we want our pdf normally at 100%. That's interesting. The idea is that you use Ovation Pro with Direct PS selected (print choices) and print to a PostScript printer, that should result in a much smaller file and much better quality. If you're not using Direct PS then you'll get the preview as you say, I think I need to reflect on why it is being scaled up. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 21:45:32 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoqH9-0006iy-92-0006jZ."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:45:32 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoqH9-0006iy-92; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:43:36 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoqH9-0006iy-92; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:43:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoqH9-0004x3-Er; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:43:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoqGq-0002cp-Q6; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:43:16 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CLhDO22212 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:43:13 GMT Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-05.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.26]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CLhDX22208 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 21:43:13 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost.com (194.230.225.43) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.0.036) id 41E38E940004A37C for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:43:12 +0100 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 20:58:50 GMT From: JMAH van Vredenburch To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: References: <575bce2b4d.janvred@smile.ch> <4996372c4d.fjr@edencroft2.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4996372c4d.fjr@edencroft2.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.04-pre2 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, RCVD_FAKE_HELO_DOTCOM,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In message <4996372c4d.fjr@edencroft2.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > In message <575bce2b4d.janvred@smile.ch> you wrote: snip old tales > > On a related matter, can you tell me why, if I open a new OPro document, > and simple create a few tabs across the first line with , > obviously in Bodytext style, the tabs are there alright - you can see > them with "view invisibles" - BUT if I open the tab ruler with either > , or via "edit styles" etc., then NO tabs are shown in the > tab ruler for me to play with? Baffled! Indeed "no show". As these are the default settings for the tabs. Allow me to suggest you read page 3.21 (=chapter-pageno.) of the manual Anno 2000. (Left column under the sub-heading "Tab Key".) Actually a good thing. Otherwise if you want to set a new tab outlay, you would 1st have to delete all the tabs that are set by default. Page 5.61 gives some more explanation on the use of the Tab Ruler. Greetings, JohnvV -- Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 22:15:34 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Coqks-00026Q-Fv-00027q."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:15:34 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Coqks-00026Q-Fv; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:14:19 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Coqks-00026Q-Fv; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:14:18 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Coqks-0001De-Ni; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:14:18 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Coqkb-0003Yp-E7; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:14:01 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CMDsI27605 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:13:54 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CMDsx27602 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:13:54 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from edencroft2.demon.co.uk ([194.222.220.137] helo=Jeremy) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoqkT-000Elj-EN for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:13:53 +0000 Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:09:54 GMT From: Jeremy Roberts To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: References: <575bce2b4d.janvred@smile.ch> <4996372c4d.fjr@edencroft2.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: X-Organization: Eden Croft User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13S) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.05 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message you wrote: > >them with "view invisibles" - BUT if I open the tab ruler with either > >, or via "edit styles" etc., then NO tabs are shown in the > >tab ruler for me to play with? Baffled! > > There are default tab stops every 10 mm after the last tab stop you > define on the ruler. These are not shown on the ruler. > Ahh... 'after the last tab'... - many thanks for that, David! JR. -- Jeremy Roberts Ahhhhh... RISC OS and the Iyonix: Now THAT's computing - simple - elegant - productive - AND a no-M$oft zone! -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 22:35:35 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cor1E-0002sT-Dk-0002t3."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:35:35 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cor1E-0002sT-Dk; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:31:13 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cor1E-0002sT-Dk; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:31:12 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cor1E-0002Q2-2b; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:31:12 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cor0y-0004aq-DH; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:30:56 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CMUmr00624 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:30:48 GMT Received: from smtpq3.home.nl (smtpq3.home.nl [213.51.128.198]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CMUlC00621 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:30:47 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.51.128.132] (port=37575 helo=smtp1.home.nl) by smtpq3.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cor0p-00044c-B4 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:30:47 +0100 Received: from cp418204-a.dbsch1.nb.home.nl ([84.27.69.179]:55080 helo=padua) by smtp1.home.nl with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cor0o-0002ex-IP for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:30:46 +0100 Message-ID: <000d01c4f8f6$5a6ca790$6502a8c0@padua> From: "Tonnie Demarteau" To: References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:30:12 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On Wednesday, January 12, 2005 10:38 PM , David Pilling wrote: >> Transpdf does a good job, but perhaps I misunderstand something. >> When I place a A4-pdf of 350 Kb in a frame at say 80% scaling the >> print-output is about 75 Mb in a bad (bitmapped) quality. So >> probably Ovation is printing the preview allthough I don't >> understand why the file has to >> be so big then. Scaling it back (in Ovation) reduces the filesize >> (and speedens up printing in a better quality). What happens here? >> Of course we want our pdf normally at 100%. > > That's interesting. There is something with scaling. Create A4 in OPW, just empty page e.g. yellow. Masterpage frame can remain white. Print to ps. Make pdf. Acrobat: A4 fully filled Yellow with the white. Load this pdf in OPW. I need to make the frame on the masterpage bigger, to be able to scale the loaded pdf to 100%. Info: EPS 3.22 MB *190.28 x 277.47 mm* > The idea is that you use Ovation Pro with Direct PS selected (print > choices) and print to a PostScript printer, that should result in a > much smaller file and much better quality. Yes. I used a press quality A4 pdf 2437KB. Imported in OPW, scaled to 100%, printed to ps and turned into pdf. Size ps nearly 27MB, pdf again 2438 KB. Of course also here the 100% scale in OPW was less than the A4 format. I don't have a real PS colour printer, so I can't try that. > If you're not using Direct PS then you'll get the preview as you say, > I think I need to reflect on why it is being scaled up. About preview. Maybe it can't avoided, but Picture-->process can be applied to the preview bitmap. Tonnie -- Mrs Tonnie Demarteau - the Netherlands -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 22:55:34 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CorKT-0000P1-Kf-0000PP."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:55:34 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CorKT-0000P1-Kf; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:51:06 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CorKT-0000P1-Kf; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:51:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CorKT-0003BB-7l; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:51:05 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CorKF-00009F-MV; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:50:51 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CMoih04489 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:50:44 GMT Received: from smtp30.hccnet.nl (smtp30.hccnet.nl [62.251.0.40]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CMoiw04485 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 22:50:44 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from rpc2.theestruik by smtp30.hccnet.nl via fia102-21-100.dsl.hccnet.nl [80.100.21.102] with SMTP for id j0CMoh9B021287 (8.13.2/2.05); Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:50:43 +0100 (MET) Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:25:54 +0100 (GMT) From: Johan Heuseveldt Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Organization: Waarland & Echteweide (Realfieldt), the Netherlands X-Url: X-Bar: -------------------------------------------------------------------- X-Platform: RISC OS (Reduced Instruction Set Computer Operating System) X-System: Risc PC 600, my first Risc PC; rpc1 X-Processor: Intel StrongARM 110 Rev T; 200-ish MHz X-OSversion: RISC OS 4 Select 3i4 [4.39] (28 Apr 2004 [Kernel 6.80]) X-Wishes: RISCOS Ltd succeeding in the continuous development of RISC OS X-Bar: -------------------------------------------------------------------- X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.53] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO, SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Hi John, On Wed 12 Jan, JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > > Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii What are you doing John? The line with CIC-member is not a headerline, and is always preceded with a single empty line. It means your mail is broken. As your mailer is MPro 2.71, it seems you're doing something devious yourself, and MPro cannot be blamed. The line Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member shouldn't be there (in the header section). Could you fix it please! (or is it the mail list software (again)) greetings, Johan -- Johan Heuseveldt aka waarland The best place is a Riscy place Only someone with nothing to be sorry for smiles back at the rear of an elephant. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Wed Jan 12 23:15:35 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Corf2-0003sE-K0-0003sq."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:15:35 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Corf2-0003sE-K0; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:12:21 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Corf2-0003sE-K0; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:12:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Corf2-0000Qq-1A; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:12:20 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Coren-0002W1-M6; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:12:05 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0CNBvQ08237 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:11:57 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0CNBux08232 for ; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:11:56 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Coree-00078d-0a for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:11:56 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Wed, 12 Jan 2005 23:10:46 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> <000d01c4f8f6$5a6ca790$6502a8c0@padua> In-Reply-To: <000d01c4f8f6$5a6ca790$6502a8c0@padua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.7 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_10,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >Create A4 in OPW, just empty page e.g. yellow. Masterpage frame can remain >white. >Print to ps. Gave me a 90K file > Make pdf. 1.3K >Load this pdf in OPW. >I need to make the frame on the masterpage bigger, to be able to scale the >loaded pdf to 100%. >Info: EPS 3.22 MB *190.28 x 277.47 mm* EPS 1.43MB This bulk is coming from the bitmap preview in the EPS. To carry on, printed this produced a PS file 95K long. >I used a press quality A4 pdf 2437KB. Imported in OPW, scaled to 100%, >printed to ps and turned into pdf. >Size ps nearly 27MB, pdf again 2438 KB. I suppose one snag is that OPW's direct PS does not use any sort of data compression on bitmap images. Perhaps it should, perhaps it will, but when the increase in size of the data is a result of this it is not a fault. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 00:15:39 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CosZd-0006Rh-AW-0006SH."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:15:39 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CosZd-0006Rh-AW; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:50 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CosZd-0006Rh-AW; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:49 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CosZd-0000Wy-1w; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:49 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CosZO-0000rc-0F; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:34 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0D0APe25183 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:25 GMT Received: from smtpq2.home.nl (smtpq2.home.nl [213.51.128.197]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0D0APp25178 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 00:10:25 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from [213.51.128.135] (port=51830 helo=smtp4.home.nl) by smtpq2.home.nl with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CosZE-0007C4-O0 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:10:24 +0100 Received: from cp418204-a.dbsch1.nb.home.nl ([84.27.69.179]:55436 helo=padua) by smtp4.home.nl with smtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CosZD-0007Mr-TT for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:10:23 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c4f904$45356890$6502a8c0@padua> From: "Tonnie Demarteau" To: References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> <000d01c4f8f6$5a6ca790$6502a8c0@padua> Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:10:14 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-AtHome-MailScanner-Information: Neem contact op met support@home.nl voor meer informatie X-AtHome-MailScanner: Found to be clean Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) On Thursday, January 13, 2005 12:10 AM , David Pilling wrote: >> Create A4 in OPW, just empty page e.g. yellow. Masterpage frame can >> remain white. >> Print to ps. > > Gave me a 90K file > >> Make pdf. > > 1.3K > >> Load this pdf in OPW. >> I need to make the frame on the masterpage bigger, to be able to >> scale the loaded pdf to 100%. >> Info: EPS 3.22 MB *190.28 x 277.47 mm* > > EPS 1.43MB My problem isn't the file size. My problem is the *scaling*. I used an A4 page. 210 x 297.4. The yellow has this size. The pdf has this size. The yellow is from edge to edge. When I import this pdf in OPW, 100% gives me 190.28 x 277.47, not 210 x 297.4. Even the scaling to 190.28 x 277.47 is already a problem, for the default frame is smaller. When I drop the pdf in the default frame, it is loaded in a smaller frame (about 50 percent). When I make the picture window bigger - bigger than the default frame- the picture disappears. I have to make the default frame on the masterpage bigger first -bigger than the picture frame that I want- to keep the picture rendered. And the picture at 100% needs a smaller size than the A4, the size used from the beginning. Tonnie -- Mrs Tonnie Demarteau - the Netherlands > > This bulk is coming from the bitmap preview in the EPS. To carry on, > printed this produced a PS file 95K long. > >> I used a press quality A4 pdf 2437KB. Imported in OPW, scaled to >> 100%, printed to ps and turned into pdf. >> Size ps nearly 27MB, pdf again 2438 KB. > > I suppose one snag is that OPW's direct PS does not use any sort of > data compression on bitmap images. Perhaps it should, perhaps it > will, but > when the increase in size of the data is a result of this it is not a > fault. > > > > -- > David Pilling > email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk > web: http://www.davidpilling.net > post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 > 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 01:55:43 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cou76-0001CO-KI-0001D1."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:55:43 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cou76-0001CO-KI; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:49:29 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cou76-0001CO-KI; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:49:28 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cou76-0002dB-4H; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:49:28 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cou6t-0002Lv-Io; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:49:15 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0D1n5h17246 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:49:05 GMT Received: from smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net (smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net [212.135.6.13]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0D1n5117243 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:49:05 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from bb-195-172-49-136.ukonline.co.uk ([195.172.49.136] helo=nails.norbins) by smarthost3.mail.uk.easynet.net with smtp (Exim 4.10) id 1Cou6e-000Ecg-00 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:49:00 +0000 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 01:19:16 +0000 (GMT) From: Jim Nagel Subject: Re: [softwarelist] sprites refuse to import To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Organization: speaking for myself X-Return-Rcpt-To: jim@abbeypress.net X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.53] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Jim Nagel wrote: > >> >hm. fraid so. i have dug out old PlingScan 1.18, after doing > >> >"quit all" on ImageFS. dropped the problem JPeg into 1.18 and > >> >there's now no problem saving as sprite into Artworks. > >> >there does seem to be a problem here with 1.21. > >> 1.21 may be configured differently to 1.18. Martin Wuerthner wrote: > >The key is a "Force new format" option if there is such a thing. ArtWorks > >only loads "new format" sprites with 32k or 16M colours. For sprites with > >256 colours or less it insits on the "old format" (RISC OS 3.1 style > >sprites). This is a known limitation in ArtWorks. On Wed 12 Jan, David Pilling wrote: > Thanks, very helpful. DPScan (Sprite Choices) does let you configure if > you want new or old format sprites. So that sounds like the solution. yes, thanks, that does solve my problem. i checked the Sprite Choices in my copies of 1.18 and 1.21 and they were indeed different. by the way, Mr David Pilling, i think you missed a wry little joke when you were forced to rename Im*g*m*st*r -- say "!scan" out loud. -- jim nagel -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 02:15:44 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CouRX-0005gE-Cx-0005i8."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:15:44 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CouRX-0005gE-Cx; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:36 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.71] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CouRX-0005gE-Cx; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CouRW-0002wJ-QO; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:34 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CouRK-0006rZ-Jg; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:22 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0D2ADQ24096 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:13 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0D2AC024092 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:13 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CouR9-000JOm-8d for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:10:11 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 02:08:53 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> <000d01c4f8f6$5a6ca790$6502a8c0@padua> <000901c4f904$45356890$6502a8c0@padua> In-Reply-To: <000901c4f904$45356890$6502a8c0@padua> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >I used an A4 page. 210 x 297.4. The yellow has this size. >The pdf has this size. The yellow is from edge to edge. >When I import this pdf in OPW, 100% gives me 190.28 x 277.47, not 210 x >297.4. > If I go through the conversion by hand (using GSView) it appears the EPS generated has a bounding box added to it (visible as a dotted line on reload into GSView) smaller than A4. I don't understand why, but I do notice that the original printer driver has a similar bounding box smaller than A4 - doesn't seem likely it survives the trip via pdf, but possible. >When I drop the pdf in the default frame, it is loaded in a smaller frame >(about 50 percent). Yes it is embedded, and an embedded frame can never be bigger than what it is embedded into. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 14:32:59 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CovtM-000392-8Q-00039l."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:32:59 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CovtM-000392-8Q; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:43:26 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CovtM-000392-8Q; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:43:24 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CovtM-0003KD-Da; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:43:24 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CovtA-0000Jo-5G; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:43:12 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0D3gcv11320 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:42:38 GMT Received: from anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.88]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0D3gcu11314 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:42:38 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-30.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Covsb-0003Hw-2P for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:42:37 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 03:41:11 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Printing Oddity References: <4D4MMGEHgt2BFwYq@pilling.demon.co.uk> <4d2a3205d9charles.hope@argonet.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2a3205d9charles.hope@argonet.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >> >I get an error message "OvPro has gone wrong" and when I ask for a >> >description I get the mesage "Sprite Extend can only do linear >> >transformations". >but the fault says it's an OvPro one ;) It is too. Having investigated the example you sent, let me localise the problem, it is printing JPEG images which are rotated, scaled and shifted with very specific values for those parameters. Apparently slight errors in my code result in something which is sufficiently far from a parallelogram to upset RISC OS. I'll sort this out. Workarounds include converting JPEGs to sprites or making tiny changes to the parameters (as above). Incidentally having produced this error, corruption to OP's memory occurs, so the safest thing is to quit and reload the program. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 14:33:00 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CoxMf-0000jp-3y-0000kJ."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:33:00 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CoxMf-0000jp-3y; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:17:46 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoxMf-0000jp-3y; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:17:45 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CoxMf-000225-0k; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:17:45 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CoxMJ-0006Pg-6Y; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:17:23 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0D5Gxw26729 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:16:59 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0D5Gw826723 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:16:58 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CoxLt-000Krq-83 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 05:16:58 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 04:39:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: <4d2c6fa058Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article , Johan Heuseveldt wrote: > Hi John, > On Wed 12 Jan, JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > > > > Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member What does this actually mean? Secretary of State? -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 14:42:56 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cp6BT-0000WA-Bx-0000Xb."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:42:56 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cp6BT-0000WA-Bx; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:42:48 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cp6BT-0000WA-Bx; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:42:47 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cp6BT-0006gE-E8; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:42:47 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cp6Aq-0006yj-Tf; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:42:08 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0DEfhs32190 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:41:43 GMT Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0DEfhS32183 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:41:43 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Cp6AQ-000Ab6-Af for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:41:42 +0000 Message-ID: <3XEPJ9AKho5BFwRb@pilling.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 14:40:10 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> <000d01c4f8f6$5a6ca790$6502a8c0@padua> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >From: Arnold van der Heijden In mailtje schreef je: > >Transpdf does a good job, but perhaps I misunderstand something. When I > >place a A4-pdf of 350 Kb in a frame at say 80% scaling the print-output > >is about 75 Mb in a bad (bitmapped) quality. So probably Ovation is > >printing the preview allthough I don't understand why the file has to > >be so big then. Scaling it back (in Ovation) reduces the filesize (and > >speedens up printing in a better quality). What happens here? Of course > >we want our pdf normally at 100%. > > That's interesting. > > The idea is that you use Ovation Pro with Direct PS selected (print > choices) and print to a PostScript printer, that should result in a much > smaller file and much better quality. Sorry, I did not notice that button. Printing to a QMS 2060 does not give a better quality, the text in the print (40%) is hardly readable. Printing to our Minolta CF 1501 gives (with direct ps selected): ERROR: undefined OFFENDING COMMAND: 1,000000 STACK: -mark- -1 -- Arnold Tekst & Uitleg Schaijk Netherlands op www.uitleg.nl Dienblad op www.dienblad.nl / Landerdsite op www.landerd.net Telefoon 0486-463112 / Fax 0486-463537 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 16:13:00 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cp7Rz-0004qn-6J-0004rk."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:13:00 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cp7Rz-0004qn-6J; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:03:57 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cp7Rz-0004qn-6J; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:03:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cp7Rz-0004uz-Lz; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:03:55 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cp7Ri-0007f8-Hv; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:03:38 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0DG3B031281 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:03:11 GMT Received: from smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.5]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0DG3Am31272 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:03:10 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from iyonixpc.workgroup ([82.32.7.157]) by smtp-out2.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:03:43 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jack Evans To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:03:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2cae4085jack@ljsevans.co.uk> In-Reply-To: References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/5.08) Content-Type: text/plain X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Jan 2005 16:03:43.0276 (UTC) FILETIME=[747336C0:01C4F989] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article , David Pilling wrote: > One comment the 'fluff' applet will perform all sorts of tidying up > like taking out double spaces and combining double hyphens into en > dashes and so on. See the Help file for a list. Fluff, ah yes, a valuable little program. But has it been 32 bitted? Using V 1.0 on the Iyonix, I found it introduced some annoying side-effects like stopping the Chars icon button from working. So I switched over to the SARPC and carried on from there. Regards Jack -- Jack Evans Bristol UK mailto:jack@ljsevans.co.uk -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 17:53:05 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1Cp91S-00005c-R1-00006s."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:53:05 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1Cp91S-00005c-R1; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:44:39 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cp91S-00005c-R1; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:44:38 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1Cp91S-0001SB-6h; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:44:38 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1Cp915-0002FC-Tu; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:44:15 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0DHhwr05128 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:43:58 GMT Received: from anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.90]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0DHhvn05115 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:43:57 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-32.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1Cp90m-000PIo-9V for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:43:57 +0000 Message-ID: <10j$xACUMr5BFwCD@pilling.demon.co.uk> Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:42:44 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2cae4085jack@ljsevans.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2cae4085jack@ljsevans.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >Fluff, ah yes, a valuable little program. But has it been 32 bitted? Not relevant because it is entirely written in OP's script language. >Using V 1.0 on the Iyonix, I found it introduced some annoying >side-effects like stopping the Chars icon button from working. So I >switched over to the SARPC and carried on from there. I can't see why that would be the case. -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 21:33:16 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpCSX-00072Y-CY-00073M."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:33:16 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpCSX-00072Y-CY; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:50 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpCSX-00072Y-CY; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:49 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpCSX-0001FJ-MY; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:49 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpCSM-0003VP-8g; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:38 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0DLOSx22764 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:28 GMT Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-05.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.26]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0DLOSb22760 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:28 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost.com (194.230.8.246) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.0.036) id 41E38E940007D1AB for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:24:27 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 17:56:59 GMT From: JMAH van Vredenburch To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Funny Headers, was Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: <0aacb82c4d.janvred@smile.ch> References: In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.04-pre2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,DATE_IN_PAST_03_06,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION, IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,RCVD_FAKE_HELO_DOTCOM, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message you wrote: > Hi John, > > On Wed 12 Jan, JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > > > > Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > What are you doing John? The line with CIC-member is not a headerline, and is > always preceded with a single empty line. It means your mail is broken. > > As your mailer is MPro 2.71, it seems you're doing something devious > yourself, and MPro cannot be blamed. The line > > Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member > > shouldn't be there (in the header section). I agree. Wondered why it was there... > > Could you fix it please! > (or is it the mail list software (again)) Thanks for the info. I also wondered having just switched from Marcel. I hope this is now better. Have no idea where the 2 following lines come from though. Am grateful for your further comment. Suggest this in direct mails. Regards, (en veel dank!) JohnvV -- Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 21:33:17 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpCSa-00048w-Lm-00049g."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:33:17 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpCSa-00048w-Lm; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:53 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpCSa-00048w-Lm; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:52 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.32] (helo=smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpCSa-0001GN-ID; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:52 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay03.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpCSM-0005Fy-BX; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:38 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0DLOUM22775 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:30 GMT Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-05.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.26]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0DLOTb22767 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 21:24:29 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost.com (194.230.8.246) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.0.036) id 41E38E940007D1AD for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:24:29 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 18:44:52 GMT From: JMAH van Vredenburch To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: <640ebd2c4d.janvred@smile.ch> References: <4d2c6fa058Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <4d2c6fa058Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.04-pre2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, RCVD_FAKE_HELO_DOTCOM,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message <4d2c6fa058Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > In article , > Johan Heuseveldt wrote: > > Hi John, > > > On Wed 12 Jan, JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > > > > > > Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member > > What does this actually mean? Secretary of State? Secretary is correct. As a Dutchman you should recognize the abbreviation 'St', short for 'Stichting', in English 'Foundation'. With Marcel the Headers are not presented in the main body of text as apparently with MPro. I have a lot to learn yet. And in case someone wonders about "CIC"? Visit As stated in an earlier message, I suggest further discussion of my "mailing errors" in direct mailing. Be assured I am/was grateful for your comments. Greetings / Vriendelijke groet JohnvV -- Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 22:23:19 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpDJt-0005X8-BT-0005Yl."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:23:19 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpDJt-0005X8-BT; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:19:58 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpDJt-0005X8-BT; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:19:57 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpDJt-0001B8-CS; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:19:57 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpDJS-0008PQ-VO; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:19:30 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0DMJPA02206 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:19:25 GMT Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-08.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.43]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0DMJPf02202 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 22:19:25 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost.com (194.230.9.143) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.0.036) id 41E392030007FBC7 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:19:24 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:18:28 GMT From: JMAH van Vredenburch To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <991ad62c4d.janvred@smile.ch> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2cae4085jack@ljsevans.co.uk> <10j$xACUMr5BFwCD@pilling.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <10j$xACUMr5BFwCD@pilling.demon.co.uk> User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.04-pre2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, RCVD_FAKE_HELO_DOTCOM,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message <10j$xACUMr5BFwCD@pilling.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > >Fluff, ah yes, a valuable little program. But has it been 32 bitted? > > Not relevant because it is entirely written in OP's script language. > > >Using V 1.0 on the Iyonix, I found it introduced some annoying > >side-effects like stopping the Chars icon button from working. So I > >switched over to the SARPC and carried on from there. > > I can't see why that would be the case. Fluff version 1.0 works without fault with me. On the Iyonix. JohnvV -- Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 23:13:21 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpE2J-0004f3-Gv-0004fY."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:13:21 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpE2J-0004f3-Gv; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:05:51 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpE2J-0004f3-Gv; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:05:51 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpE2J-00024y-0p; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:05:51 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpE1x-0001T8-Ig; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:05:29 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0DN5Fk09886 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:05:15 GMT Received: from anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.85]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0DN5FH09883 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:05:15 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-35.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CpE0X-000Ae4-IW for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:04:02 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:03:54 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> <000d01c4f8f6$5a6ca790$6502a8c0@padua> <3XEPJ9AKho5BFwRb@pilling.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <3XEPJ9AKho5BFwRb@pilling.demon.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >Sorry, I did not notice that button. Printing to a QMS 2060 does not >give a better quality, the text in the print (40%) is hardly readable. I'd assume that again you don't have PostScript output in that case - direct PS not selected, or the printer is not PS, or my program does not recognise the driver as being PS. > Printing to our Minolta CF 1501 gives (with direct ps selected): >ERROR: undefined >OFFENDING COMMAND: 1,000000 It would be interesting to investigate why that is happening - if you feel like letting me see the files. Problem might be my PS, or it might be the EPS generated by GhostScript. A quick test of PS is of course to load it into GhostScript (GSView). -- David Pilling email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.davidpilling.net post: David Pilling P.O. Box 22 Thornton Cleveleys Blackpool. FY5 1LR UK fax: +44(0)870-0520-941 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Thu Jan 13 23:33:22 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpEP5-000599-E3-00059r."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:33:22 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpEP5-000599-E3; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:29:24 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpEP5-000599-E3; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:29:23 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.34] (helo=smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpEP5-0007aq-5n; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:29:23 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay05.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpEOe-0000xj-46; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:28:56 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0DNSmJ14748 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:28:48 GMT Received: from anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.91]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0DNSmK14725 for ; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:28:48 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from omba.demon.co.uk ([158.152.58.5]) by anchor-post-33.mail.demon.net with smtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CpEOU-000L5w-Ci for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:28:47 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jeremy C B Nicoll To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Thu, 13 Jan 2005 23:11:05 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: <4d2cd56dd3Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <640ebd2c4d.janvred@smile.ch> References: <4d2c6fa058Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <640ebd2c4d.janvred@smile.ch> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03h (RISC-OS/3.70) Content-Type: text/plain Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-5.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,IN_REP_TO,REFERENCES,SIGNATURE_SHORT_SPARSE, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <640ebd2c4d.janvred@smile.ch>, JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > Secretary is correct. Thanks! > As a Dutchman you Me, I'm a Scot, living in Scotland... -- Jeremy C B Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 14 13:56:10 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpN9D-0003Vb-DI-0003Vy."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:56:10 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpN9D-0003Vb-DI; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:49:35 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.223] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpN9D-0003Vb-DI; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:49:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.31] (helo=smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpN9C-0001Ac-Ty; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:49:35 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay02.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpN8e-0002qG-7i; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:49:00 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0E8mhh26197 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:48:43 GMT Received: from smtp2.global.net.uk (smtp2.global.net.uk [80.189.94.52]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0E8mgE26193 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:48:43 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from 239.207.adsl.brightview.com ([80.189.207.239] helo=RTV) by smtp2.global.net.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.24; FreeBSD) id 1CpN8M-000Gw2-Ha for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:48:42 +0000 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 08:35:27 +0000 From: Mik Towse To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: <4D2D091920%mik.towse@xemik.com> References: <4d2c6fa058Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <640ebd2c4d.janvred@smile.ch> In-Reply-To: <640ebd2c4d.janvred@smile.ch> X-Organization: Xemik Solutions! Ltd User-Agent: Messenger-Pro 2.62 POPstar/2.05 X-Editor: Zap 1.45, using ZapEmail 0.26 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Authenticated-Sender: Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE, USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <640ebd2c4d.janvred@smile.ch> JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > In message <4d2c6fa058Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > > Johan Heuseveldt wrote: > > > On Wed 12 Jan, JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > > > > Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member > > What does this actually mean? Secretary of State? > Secretary is correct. As a Dutchman you should recognize the > abbreviation 'St', short for 'Stichting', in English 'Foundation'. > > With Marcel the Headers are not presented in the main body of text as > apparently with MPro. I have a lot to learn yet. [snip] You appear to be using MPro now, so if you want to include that info in your headers, you could put it in Organization (Iconbar menu->Choices...->Site details). -- Mik Towse * mik.towse@xemik.com * http://www.xemik.co.uk/ My writers' site can be found at: http://www.lexis.org.uk xemik.net - cost effective web hosting : http://xemik.net If they give you ruled paper, write the other way. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 14 13:56:15 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpPSB-0000fx-6f-0000gn."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:56:15 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpPSB-0000fx-6f; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:17:20 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpPSB-0000fx-6f; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:17:19 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpPSA-00043F-SL; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:17:18 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpPRq-0007z7-C3; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:16:58 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0EBGhl09576 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:16:43 GMT Received: from smtp30.hccnet.nl (smtp30.hccnet.nl [62.251.0.40]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0EBGg409568 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:16:42 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from rpc2.theestruik by smtp30.hccnet.nl via fia102-21-100.dsl.hccnet.nl [80.100.21.102] with SMTP for id j0EBGeTq026478 (8.13.2/2.05); Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:16:41 +0100 (MET) Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 10:33:04 +0100 (GMT) From: Johan Heuseveldt Subject: Re: Funny Headers, was Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net In-Reply-To: <0aacb82c4d.janvred@smile.ch> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII X-Organization: Waarland & Echteweide (Realfieldt), the Netherlands X-Url: X-Bar: -------------------------------------------------------------------- X-Platform: RISC OS (Reduced Instruction Set Computer Operating System) X-System: Risc PC 600, my first Risc PC; rpc1 X-Processor: Intel StrongARM 110 Rev T; 200-ish MHz X-OSversion: RISC OS 4 Select 3i4 [4.39] (28 Apr 2004 [Kernel 6.80]) X-Wishes: RISCOS Ltd succeeding in the continuous development of RISC OS X-Bar: -------------------------------------------------------------------- X-Mailer: ANT RISCOS Marcel [ver 1.53] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-7.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) Hi John, On Thu 13 Jan, JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > In message you wrote: > > On Wed 12 Jan, JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > > > Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member > > > MIME-Version: 1.0 > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > > > What are you doing John? The line with CIC-member is not a headerline, > > and is always preceded with a single empty line. It means your mail is > > broken. [...] > > Secr. St Van Vredenburch; CIC-member > > > > shouldn't be there (in the header section). > > I agree. Wondered why it was there... > > > > > Could you fix it please! > > (or is it the mail list software (again)) > > Thanks for the info. I also wondered having just switched from Marcel. Hope to do so too real soon; saying that for years! > I hope this is now better. Yes, it is. Hurray! And thanks, as I don't have to correct it mannualy > Have no idea where the 2 following lines come from though. Just normal header lines, which /should/ be there in the header block. So donn't get alarmed by that. They were now visible as every mailer is showing them, because the first blank line is the end-of-header signal. > Am grateful for your further comment. Suggest this in direct mails. It seems to be solved now. I could ask again: what have you done Joh? ... but naaah, I won't! :-) No need for private correspondence anymore I guess. But if there is still a need, don't hesitate, and get it off your chest. > Regards, (en veel dank!) My years-old assumption you're Dutch, seems valid now!? (and wondering what a Dutch guy does in the mountains of the Confederation Helvetique) greetings, Johan -- Johan Heuseveldt aka waarland The best place is a Riscy place Work off excess energy. Steal something heavy. -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 14 13:56:16 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpQCJ-0005jC-Db-0005k9."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:56:16 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpQCJ-0005jC-Db; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:05:00 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.210] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpQCJ-0005jC-Db; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:04:59 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpQCJ-0005Sg-0E; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:04:59 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpQBr-0006ku-TN; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:04:31 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0EC4OG26839 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:04:24 GMT Received: from smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk (smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk [195.188.213.6]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0EC4Nr26836 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:04:23 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from iyonixpc.workgroup ([82.32.7.157]) by smtp-out3.blueyonder.co.uk with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.6713); Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:04:53 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 From: Jack Evans To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 11:56:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Underlining Message-ID: <4d2d1b76c4jack@ljsevans.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <991ad62c4d.janvred@smile.ch> References: <3bb6992b4d.michael@talibard.com> <4d2b9e55bamaillist.parish@millers-way.net> <4D2BA3C547%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2ba4c0e6john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4D2BA94CFE%mik.towse@xemik.com> <4d2babdc35john@cartmell.demon.co.uk> <4d2c20a778Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2c350555Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <4d2cae4085jack@ljsevans.co.uk> <10j$xACUMr5BFwCD@pilling.demon.co.uk> <991ad62c4d.janvred@smile.ch> User-Agent: Pluto/3.03j (RISC-OS/5.08) Content-Type: text/plain X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Jan 2005 12:04:53.0639 (UTC) FILETIME=[41BBE170:01C4FA31] Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In article <991ad62c4d.janvred@smile.ch>, JMAH van Vredenburch wrote: > In message <10j$xACUMr5BFwCD@pilling.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > > >Fluff, ah yes, a valuable little program. But has it been 32 bitted? > > > > Not relevant because it is entirely written in OP's script language. > > > > >Using V 1.0 on the Iyonix, I found it introduced some annoying > > >side-effects like stopping the Chars icon button from working. So I > > >switched over to the SARPC and carried on from there. > > > > I can't see why that would be the case. > Fluff version 1.0 works without fault with me. On the Iyonix. > JohnvV In that case and in view of David P's comment I will investigate further and report back with any conclusions. Regards Jack -- Jack Evans Bristol UK mailto:jack@ljsevans.co.uk -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 14 13:56:16 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpQT2-0005mu-Pf-0005pk."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:56:16 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpQT2-0005mu-Pf; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:22:19 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.211] (helo=lon1-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpQT2-0005mu-Pf; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:22:16 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by lon1-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpQT2-0007Tu-P5; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:22:16 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpQSV-0004eu-0H; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:21:43 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0ECLaR31327 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:21:36 GMT Received: from mail-ps.sunrise.ch (mta-ps-be-08.sunrise.ch [194.158.229.43]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0ECLaP31321 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:21:36 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from localhost.com (194.230.8.180) by mail-ps.sunrise.ch (7.0.036) id 41E3920300096CEB for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:21:35 +0100 Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:16:25 GMT From: JMAH van Vredenburch To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Tab leaders in OPro. Message-ID: <2dd2222d4d.janvred@smile.ch> References: <4d2c6fa058Jeremy@omba.demon.co.uk> <640ebd2c4d.janvred@smile.ch> <4D2D091920%mik.towse@xemik.com> In-Reply-To: <4D2D091920%mik.towse@xemik.com> User-Agent: Messenger-Pro/2.71 (MsgServe/2.13) (RISC-OS/5.07) POPstar/2.04-pre2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,EMAIL_ATTRIBUTION,IN_REP_TO, RCVD_FAKE_HELO_DOTCOM,REFERENCES,REPLY_WITH_QUOTES, USER_AGENT version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) In message <4D2D091920%mik.towse@xemik.com> you wrote: > You appear to be using MPro now, so if you want to include that info in your > headers, you could put it in Organization (Iconbar menu->Choices...->Site > details). Thank you! -- Jhr JMAH van Vredenburch -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 14 13:56:16 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpQuO-0003AJ-Bd-0003BZ."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 13:56:16 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpQuO-0003AJ-Bd; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:50:34 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.77] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpQuO-0003AJ-Bd; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:50:32 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpQuO-0005k1-DQ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:50:32 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpQtS-0004RI-1Y; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:49:34 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0ECnIN09781 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:49:18 GMT Received: from smtp004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com (smtp004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com [217.12.11.35]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with SMTP id j0ECnIp09778 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:49:18 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from unknown (HELO localhost) (paul?witheridge@81.105.191.144 with login) by smtp004.mail.ukl.yahoo.com with SMTP; 14 Jan 2005 12:49:18 -0000 From: Paul Witheridge To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net Subject: [softwarelist] OvnPro for Windows - toolbox/info-palette with multiple documents open Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 12:50:58 +0000 Organization: Marlow Message-ID: X-Mailer: Forte Agent 2.0/32.652 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by svr1.spellings.net id j0ECnIp09779 Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,HAS_ORGANIZATION,USER_AGENT_FORTE version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) I regularly open multiple .dpd documents simultaneously. However, the toolbox and info-palette seem to stay associated with only one of these documents (the last loaded document) and this leads to the following behaviour: 1. If I switch the focus (e.g. Alt-Tab) from one Ovation Pro document to another, the toolbox and palette stay with the last-loaded document. I have a big desktop spread across two monitors so this can leave the toolbox and palette way across the other side of my desktop (up to 30 inches away). 2. If I minimise the last-loaded document, the toolbox and palette are also minimised so I cannot use them for the other non-minimised documents. 3. If I close the last-loaded document, the toolbox and palette are also closed. I can get them back by (a) opening the "View options" dialog box, (b) unticking "Toolbox" and "Info palette", (c) clicking "Apply", (d) reticking "Toolbox" and "Info palette" and (e) clicking "OK" (or by loading another document), but it's messy. I am using Ovation Pro 2.75 (08-January-05) and have updated the "AutoRun\!Choices" file "viewchoices2" line as follows: viewchoices2(3,120,870,3,129,456); to allow the toolbox and palette to move onto my second screen. Is the above a design issue or is there some option I can change to make the toolbox and palette work better in a multiple document environment. Thanks. -- Paul Witheridge - Marlow, UK -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 14 14:06:06 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpS4A-00041B-Ju-00041s."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:06:06 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpS4A-00041B-Ju; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:04:42 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpS4A-00041B-Ju; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:04:42 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.33] (helo=smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpS49-0000BL-RS; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:04:42 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay04.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpS3q-0005rj-PV; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:04:22 +0000 Received: (from admin@localhost) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) id j0EE4Di30152 for softwarelist-OutGoing; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:04:13 GMT Received: from anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net (anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.92]) by svr1.spellings.net (8.11.7/8.11.7) with ESMTP id j0EE4Cv30147 for ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:04:12 GMT Delivered-To: Received: from pilling.demon.co.uk ([62.49.20.172]) by anchor-post-34.mail.demon.net with esmtp (Exim 4.42) id 1CpS3f-000EdC-G4 for softwarelist@davidpilling.net; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:04:12 +0000 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:02:56 +0000 To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net From: David Pilling Subject: Re: [softwarelist] Ovation Pro, Windows, loading PDF's References: <6yRcQQFn3c3BFwiX@pilling.demon.co.uk> <000d01c4f8f6$5a6ca790$6502a8c0@padua> <3XEPJ9AKho5BFwRb@pilling.demon.co.uk> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=us-ascii;format=flowed User-Agent: Turnpike/6.02-S (<4T+r1rR+bkVQqNpwE9H6P2XkEQ>) Sender: owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Precedence: bulk Reply-To: softwarelist@davidpilling.net X-maillist: softwarelist X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-6.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_01,IN_REP_TO,QUOTED_EMAIL_TEXT,REFERENCES, REPLY_WITH_QUOTES,SIGNATURE_LONG_SPARSE,USER_AGENT autolearn=ham version=2.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.55 (1.174.2.19-2003-05-19-exp) >From: Arnold van der Heijden In mailtje schreef je: > >Sorry, I did not notice that button. Printing to a QMS 2060 does not > >give a better quality, the text in the print (40%) is hardly readable. > > I'd assume that again you don't have PostScript output in that case - > direct PS not selected, or the printer is not PS, or my program does not > recognise the driver as being PS. Direct ps is selected, the printer is postcript. > > Printing to our Minolta CF 1501 gives (with direct ps selected): > >ERROR: undefined > >OFFENDING COMMAND: 1,000000 > > It would be interesting to investigate why that is happening - if you > feel like letting me see the files. Problem might be my PS, or it might > be the EPS generated by GhostScript. A quick test of PS is of course to > load it into GhostScript (GSView). Which gives some errors (which I can't interprete). I tried something with level 2 or 3 and with optimized for speed, portability ore eps output format. It makes no difference. I can e-mail the Ghostscript errorfile. Referenced pdf's don't pass the Transpdf-filter? -- Arnold Tekst & Uitleg Schaijk Netherlands op www.uitleg.nl Dienblad op www.dienblad.nl / Landerdsite op www.landerd.net Telefoon 0486-463112 / Fax 0486-463537 -- To unsubscribe from this list, email listadmin@davidpilling.net with the words UNSUBSCRIBE softwarelist in the body of the message Mailing list provided and hosted by www.spellings.net From owner-softwarelist@davidpilling.net Fri Jan 14 17:56:17 2005 Received: from 127.0.0.1 by pilling.demon.co.uk with POP3 id <1CpVbu-00004l-RZ-00005P."pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> for <"pilling:pop3.demon.co.uk"@127.0.0.1> ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:56:17 +0000 Return-path: Received: from punt-3.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 1CpVbu-00004l-RZ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:51:47 +0000 Received: from [194.217.242.72] (helo=anchor-hub.mail.demon.net) by punt-3.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpVbu-00004l-RZ; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:51:46 +0000 Received: from [212.69.217.30] (helo=smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk) by anchor-hub.mail.demon.net with esmtp id 1CpVbu-0003Zf-9b; Fri, 14 Jan 2005 17:51:46 +0000 Received: from [212.69.206.29] (helo=svr1.spellings.net) by smtp-relay01.x-mailer.co.uk with esmtp (Exim 4.30) id 1CpVbZ-0006wS-8T; Fri, 14 Jan 2