From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:54:30 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56233 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:54:25 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886503937:15:05360:83; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:05:37 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0619097; 3 Feb 98 11:05 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ak1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:04 GMT From: "Bernard G. Hill" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:38:04 +0000 Organization: Subject: subscribe To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.103804.41@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Jan 1998 21:43:05 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Hello, I hope that I haven=91t offended anyone, but I sent a contribution to the discussion group on the 23 Jan, and since then I have not received any mailings. Is the group still functioning? Have you had some problems? I would still like to receive mailings. Berni. --=20 Bernard G. Hill Tel/Fax: 01633 880197 Zion, Church Road Undy, Newport e-mail bernard.hill@virgin.net Monmouthshire NP6 3EN=20 To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:54:34 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56235 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:54:33 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504002:15:05653:79; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:06:42 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0619530; 3 Feb 98 11:06 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id am1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:05 GMT From: Nic Cox Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:42:26 +0000 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Full stop- Double space? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104226.81@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:30:54 EST X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c << Likewise - I only started to use double spaces in the past year, as it does make sentence breaks easier to read - like serifs on typefaces, it leads your eye to the natural breaks between sentences. I think it makes a real difference, particularly in small print and narrow aspect ratio fonts. >> ... but can lead to that other horror of "white space rivers" when using full justification. Nic Cox To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:54:41 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56237 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:54:38 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504018:15:05705:79; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:06:58 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0619513; 3 Feb 98 11:06 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id al1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:05 GMT From: Chris Chorley Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:41:15 +0000 Organization: Subject: Editing Master Pages To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104115.29@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 12:39:55 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c I tried editing the master pages for an OPro document which was originally created under 2.46, and worked perfectly up to now in 2.48. All I did was try to add a footer by changing the value from 0 to 10. Click ok and the whole machine locks with no message. The document is only four A4 pages, with the default master page. I'll get round it by creating a new document, but I'm glad I saved it *before* trying to add a footer. RPC/SA 20Mb RAM OPro 2.48 Chris. To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:54:45 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56239 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:54:44 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504036:12:18843:79; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:07:16 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0619702; 3 Feb 98 11:06 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ap1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:06 GMT From: Matthew Hambley Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:38:50 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: One vs Two spaces after full stop To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.103850.94@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:40:41 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c I thought I would chip in with my tuppence worth on this topic. Just for the record I prefer two spaces after a full stop. I think that probably the only leason we can draw from this protracted and repeating discussion is that people have different preferences when it comes to the number of spaces after a full stop. As far as I can see there is no hard and fast rule on the subject so the best route to take would be to allow the software to cope with both. -- (\/)atthew Hambley ---------------------\ term : ceemah@cee.hw.ac.uk \ "What's a network?" holiday : mhambley@arcade.demon.co.uk \ B.Gates, early '80s web : http://www.cee.hw.ac.uk/~ceemah/ \---------------------------------- To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:54:49 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56241 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:54:48 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504053:15:05960:80; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:07:33 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0619702; 3 Feb 98 11:07 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ar1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:07 GMT From: Alf Chamings Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:44:06 +0000 Organization: Subject: OPro: type 5 crash saving default doc To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104406.21@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 16:12:19 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c I find I cannot save a document created from a click on the icon bar icon without a type 5 crash (version 2.48(. I suppose the answer lies somewhere in my failure to follow instructions to the letter: I upgraded my working copy and not a newly installed copy of 2.46. Anybody else found this problem? I will reinstall and then upgrade following the instructions to see if it goes away Alf -- mailto:AlfChamings@ed.ac.uk Health and Safety for the Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh tel +44 131 536 3251 fax +44 131 536 3283 http://www.med.ed.ac.uk/hew/ for occupational and environmental health To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:54:55 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56243 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:54:53 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504104:12:19159:83; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:08:24 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ac0620087; 3 Feb 98 11:07 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id aq1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:06 GMT From: Alan Adams +44 1327 356463 Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:42:03 +0000 Organization: Subject: View spelling errors To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104203.50@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:33:17 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c I like the option to view spelling errors. I also remember a discussion, but not the solution, about files coming up with every word underlined. When this happens, I simply turn off the option, and turn it back on. However, I have a different version of the problem to report. In a document where I am viewing spelling errors, if I select a piece of text, and drag and drop it elsewhere, the target paragraph (at least Ithink that is the scope of it) is underlined red. This is reproducible at will. I am running OPro 2.46 on RiscOS 3.7, StrongARM. Alan Adams To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:01 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56245 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:54:58 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504243:12:19805:82; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:10:43 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0621435; 3 Feb 98 11:10 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ad1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:09 GMT From: "Peter Daniel" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:40:01 +0000 Organization: University of Salford Subject: Re:Full stop- Double space? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104001.74@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:49:02 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c > On Mon, 19 Jan 1998, Alf Chamings wrote: > > : Sounds like we had better follow suit. I do not think I will be going over > : all our policies and procedures to eliminate double spaces, though. I have > : only started to use a double space since my (old school) secretary convinced > : me it looked better (and was more easily read). I wonder who decided that > : was all wrong and why. Perhaps it is just a reaction against an established > : convention for the sake of being 'modern'. > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > When did people stop using double space, then? It wasn't May 1st this > year was it? ;-) > Do you mean last year? > > Nigel > -- > E-mail: nigel.parker@iee.org > > P'Lodge: 01223 338999 > Mobile: 0411 384803 > > Girton College, Cambridge, England, CB3 0JG. > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk > with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l > To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Visit my web site: http://rampage.ml.org/users/~peter/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:06 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56247 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:55:04 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504245:15:06732:82; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:10:45 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0621337; 3 Feb 98 11:10 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id bw1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:09 GMT From: Roger Mayne Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:38:28 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re:Full stop- Double space? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.103828.41@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:37:37 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Wed 21 Jan, Dave Allen wrote: > I have never heard such twaddle being written about something so > unimportant. All I know, is that the single space looks wrong and > cramped, to me, so, I will continue with double spacing, right or > wrong. I was not even aware that there was a convention or rule. I think this proves the point of my original posting on this subject regarding the lowering of standards by the use of computers and DTP by untrained users. Buy the book Dave. On Wed 21 Jan, Ray Dawson wrote: > I normally use one space, but one of my clients insists on two. Ray, you and I both know that if your client insists on two spaces after a full point, then you put two spaces after a full point. I see from your signature that you are a braille specialist. Is this, perhaps, the reason for your client insisting on two spaces? This I could well understand and would have every sympathy with. Regards Roger -- Roger Mayne mailto:darprint@eurobell.co.uk Darprint, Lithographic Printers Unit 21, r/o 8-14 St. Vincents Road, Dartford, Kent, DA1 1XZ Tel: 01322 227574 Fax: 01322 291237 To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:13 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56249 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:55:12 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504280:12:20024:81; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:11:20 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id af0621337; 3 Feb 98 11:10 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id bx1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:10 GMT From: Dave Allen Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:40:26 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: !The and extra spaces To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104026.81@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:49:22 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Tue 20 Jan, Tim King wrote: > On Mon 19 Jan, Roger Mayne wrote: > > On Fri 16 Jan, Tim King wrote: > > > > Nearly forty years ago I served a seven year apprenticeship as a compositor > > (metal typesetting) which included three years at Art College being > > instructed in the numerous aspects of typesetting and design for print. > > There is only one way to do a job and that is the right way! > > > > The standards which I was taught all those years ago are still applicable > > today and I would urge anyone "doing what they like" to buy one of the > > excellent books on typography available to aid them in perfecting their > > skills. > Can you, please, recommend one of these 'excellent books', for me to read. I would dearly like to improve my skills at the computer. I've noticed the tendency of secretaries to offer mediocre typing, the lazy placing of addresses, for example. -- | _ \ __ ___ _____ / _ \| | |___ _ _ | |_) / _` \ V / -_) | _ | | / -_) ' \ |____/\__,_|\_/\___| |_| |_|_|_\___|_||_| dave@allendr.demon.co.uk To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:21 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56251 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:55:18 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504287:12:20075:89; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:11:27 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id af0621820; 3 Feb 98 11:11 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ab1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:10 GMT From: Alan Adams +44 1327 356463 Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:40:50 +0000 Organization: Subject: Double space or not? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104050.30@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:05:12 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c After reading the discussion on whether to put two spaces after a full stop, it seems that it would be useful to look at the reasons behind it. One writer reported a recommendation to put two spaces in a fixed font, but not in a proportional font. (Have I got that the right way round?) It occurs to me that the big difference here is the width of the space character. In a proportional font, it's small, so using two would actually look more like using a single space in a fixed font. So the advice I think I remembered correctly above, would seem to be exactly wrong. Be that as it may, should we actually be looking at how to print and display , rather than fiddling with the number of them. Would it be possible, for example, to use something like a ligature, only with more rather than less space between the characters. This would then adjust the spacing automatically, and you would only need one space. Alan Adams To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:27 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56253 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:55:26 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504342:12:20384:80; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:12:22 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0622180; 3 Feb 98 11:12 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id as1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:11 GMT From: Alan Adams +44 1327 356463 Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:41:38 +0000 Organization: Subject: Picture runaround curves To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104138.88@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 14:30:10 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c A recent writer to the newsgroup has found a problem I reported some months ago. David's reply to both of us was the same - allow more error when calculating the curves. I had done that before reporting the problem, although I didn't take the value more than about ten times its original setting. Maybe x100, x1000 would help? However, after that discussion, I realised that for my needs there was a much better solution - simply draw an irregular frame round the draw file. I realise that will not work for many drawings, but it did for mine. Sometimes the simple solutions work better than the complex ones. I got the distinct impression that in some cases the error factor had no discernable effect. I was working with a complex bezier curve, and it seemed that the runaround curve always had the same number of points as the bezier. In addition, when the points on the bezier were too close together, loops occurred. I did not do exhaustive experiment to check this - I has a magazine to produce. A simple way to reproduce the problem is to create a single letter in, say, Trinity, set it to a large point size, and convert it to a path. Then ask OPro to create a runaround curve. Alan Adams To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:32 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56255 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:55:30 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504349:15:07292:81; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:12:29 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0622424; 3 Feb 98 11:12 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id by1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:11 GMT From: Elliott Grosvenor Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:43:41 +0000 Organization: The Western Commercial Arts Co. Subject: Re: !The and extra spaces To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104341.50@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:52:32 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c In message <19980120.094628.01@risc.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > On Mon 19 Jan, Roger Mayne wrote: > > On Fri 16 Jan, Tim King wrote: .... lots of good stuff about the declining standards of design and typography. I have never admitted to this before but here goes. I am a design and print professional and I tend to keep quiet (as quiet as I can) about these declining standards because the bigger the gap between what we do professionally and what others do because they happen to have the equipment, the better. It makes it easier for me to sell my skills if I can point to a previously printed job of mine then instantly compare it with the the other 90% of printed matter in my client's office. I don't want the self-taughts and philistines to know the secrets of the black art, the world's second oldest profession. -- Kevin Simpson BA(Hons) The Western Commercial Arts Co. http://www.wcartsco.demon.co.uk graphic design - typeface design - typography - illustration - printing To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:37 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56257 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:55:35 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504388:05:10179:86; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:13:08 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ac0622180; 3 Feb 98 11:12 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id an1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:11 GMT From: Nic Cox Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:44:30 +0000 Organization: AOL (http://www.aol.com) Subject: Re: Double spaces To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104430.69@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 11:30:53 EST X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c What a lot of correspondence on this matter! In many (most?) fonts, notice that the width of the bounding box for a period is the same as that of a fixed space and of a (variable) space before it is varied. (In big letters, type XXXXXX and just below XXX.XXX. They should line up.) Each of these is half the width of a numeral bounding box, which in turn is the same width as characters such as 151, all presumably designed to let the accountants line up their figures ... ... so if you use one period and one space at the end of a sentence, you have the equivalent space of two spaces (or two periods) between the words at the end of one sentence and the beginning of the next ... unless, of course, your text is fully justified and the variable spaces aren't the same width as fixed spaces any more ... but if it isn't, and you used a period and two spaces you are really voting for THREE space widths between words at the end of a sentence. An ellipsis has a width of more than three periods. Hands up all those people who type three periods (as I have in this mail) instead of occupying the "proper" amount of space on the line! How I miss those days melting lead! Nic Cox To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:42 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56259 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:55:40 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504392:12:20604:79; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:13:12 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0622180; 3 Feb 98 11:13 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id cc1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:12 GMT From: "Bernard G. Hill" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:37:40 +0000 Organization: Subject: Test spacing To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.103740.65@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Jan 1998 20:11:03 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Hi My contribution to the subject of the size of spaces after full stops is to draw attention to a small book by Eric Gill, who designed the typeface carrying his name, entitled 'An Essay on Typography'. He is very interested in the fact that unless text is deliberately manipulated for a specific purpose, its main function is to be read as easily as possible. He maintained that to this end, spaces should be as small as possible, since we separate words in our minds as we read. While he was in charge of the Nonesuch Press, he insisted that thin spaces should be used. A thin space is 20% of an em, an em being a space equal to the point size of the type in use. There will, of course, be times when larger spaces at the end of sentences are beneficial in slowing down the pace of reading. He hated justified type except for very long lines, because the extra space in justified type makes reading more difficult. It is very difficult to get justified type which does not show rivers of white space running down the page. Justified type is used only because the page overall looks smarter, but it is not so easy to read. I haven=91t got the references to hand but research has been done which supports that. My work has been very much influenced by his teaching. Many of the effects used today have resulted from the use of the typewriter with its monospaced single face type. Emphasis could be gained by underlining. There is no need to underline when a bold or italic face can be used. Underlining, tends to compete with the text rather than enhancing it. Best wishes Berni =20 --=20 Bernard G. Hill Tel/Fax: 01633 880197 Zion, Church Road Undy, Newport e-mail bernard.hill@virgin.net Monmouthshire NP6 3EN=20 To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:49 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56261 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:55:47 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504444:12:20915:81; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:14:04 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0623139; 3 Feb 98 11:13 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id cd1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:13 GMT From: Elliott Grosvenor Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:42:52 +0000 Organization: The Western Commercial Arts Co. Subject: Re:Full stop- Double space? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104252.75@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 15:30:18 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c In message <19980121.085430.47@risc.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > You fellers must just like to confuse people, I reckon. Now you have > gone and confused yourselves. I have never heard such twaddle being > written about something so unimportant. All I know, is that the > single space looks wrong and cramped, to me, so, I will continue with > double spacing, right or wrong. I was not even aware that there was a > convention or rule. :-) There aren't any rules as such. However a typesetter/designer will aim for an even gray texture to the set text and will do all he can to avoid holes or rivers of white. This means that in some typefaces the gap between the words after a full point will actually be made smaller and in some typefaces the gap will be made bigger. This is usually handled by auto kerning and can often (although not easily on an Acorn system) be tweaked to exactly match the designer's personal preferences. If handled in this way the gap will vary according to what letter the next word starts with. For example a fullpoint-space-T or -W etc will be kerned tighter than a fullpoint-space-P or L. On the basis that the typesetting system is sophisticated enough to do it properly for you, you should not put two spaces after a full point. However if doing so provides the right "feel" to the text... We professionals think this is VERY important. I suppose thats the difference between asking your neighbour to design your sales literature and asking a designer. -- Kevin Simspson BA(Hons) The Western Commercial Arts Co. http://www.wcartsco.demon.co.uk graphic design - typeface design - typography - illustration - printing To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:55:54 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56263 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:55:53 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504483:15:07914:79; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:14:43 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0623390; 3 Feb 98 11:14 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ce1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:13 GMT From: Tom Tanner Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:44:53 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Double spaces (was: Various) To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104453.77@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 98 22:20:33 GMT X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Wed 21 Jan 98 (08:50:28 +0000), 95ncp@eng.cam.ac.uk wrote: >On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, David Pilling wrote: > >: From: Roger Mayne >: >I do not wish to offend anyone with this email, but the statement >: "do >what you like" only compounds the problem which I have observed >: through my professional capacity due to the proliferation of home >: computer use. : >: So which is right, single or double spaces after full stops? >: >: One thing I may do is an applet which cleans up documents, sort of >: like 'lint' lets call it 'fluff', typical sort of job would be to >: remove double spaces after full stops or put them in, if we could >: decide. >Someone else has suggested that the existence of en and em spaces may >be something to do with having a bigger "sentence gap" than a "word >gap". I guess that a regular space bar space is an en one, so perhaps >an applet which changed an en space after a full stop into an em space >could prove the solution... No. Ugh, horrible. A space is a variable width thing which is fiddle with by justifcation. It is, by default, about 1/4 the width of an em (or it was when I did hand composing). However, 2 spaces after a full stop is something horrible started in the period of (yech) typewriters. It don't look nice on the printed page. En spaces are / were used for tabular matter or spacing out headlines and such like, and, really have very little relevance today. (sob). >This would overcome the wrapping problems associated with double >spaces. > > >Nigelr -- Regards (PC) / Love from (non PC but nicer) [delete as applicable] Thos -- T. R. Tanner email: ttehtann@argonet.co.uk; ZFC A; Clanorak and StrongArmed web page: http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/ttehtann Warning: Here be random taglines! To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:56:01 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56265 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:56:00 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504484:05:10682:83; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:14:44 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ae0623349; 3 Feb 98 11:14 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id az1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:13 GMT From: Ariancylch Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:45:19 +0000 Organization: Lylmik Supervisory body Subject: Re: Various To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104519.76@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Jan 1998 05:45:26 +1200 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c In message <19980121.085323.85@risc.demon.co.uk> Ray Dawson wrote: > On 20 Jan, David Pilling wrote: > > > So which is right, single or double spaces after full stops? > > Neither or both. The space after a full stop is a different animal to > the word space, but different users have their own preference as to > which they use - one or two as we don't have the real one. Incidentally, we likely do. Another 'common' complaint I've heard is that we don't have the various sizes of '-' that are used. However, if you load !Chars, as found in most 'Apps' icons, and switch it to, say, Palatino.Roman, you'll find that there are several widths of '-'. The ' ' is a little harder to see, but I'm fairly sure I found one in some font (of course, not all fonts have all characters, so it's not quite that simple). The difficulty is, of course, in getting at them, since they don't appear on the keyboard, most people forget about the rest (hence ... instead of the proper elipsis :P) As David said, something like enhanced justification that did it for you would be most useful. Might be an interesting exercise to see if an applet that would time how long between each '-' you entered was, and if they were close enough together it could insert a wider '-'... -- I won't use words again | Faith | May god stand between you they don't mean what I meant |manages| and harm in all the empty they don't say what I said | - JMS | places where you must walk To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:56:07 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56267 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:56:04 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504504:15:07980:85; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:15:04 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0623349; 3 Feb 98 11:14 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id cg1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:14 GMT From: "waddell@which.net" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:39:37 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Double spaces (was: Various) To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.103937.40@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:38:26 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Wed 21 Jan, Nigel Parker wrote: > On Tue, 20 Jan 1998, David Pilling wrote: > > : From: Roger Mayne > : >I do not wish to offend anyone with this email, but the statement "do > : >what you like" only compounds the problem which I have observed through > : >my professional capacity due to the proliferation of home computer use. > : > : So which is right, single or double spaces after full stops? > : > : One thing I may do is an applet which cleans up documents, sort of > : like 'lint' lets call it 'fluff', typical sort of job would be to > : remove double spaces after full stops or put them in, if we could decide. > > Someone else has suggested that the existence of en and em spaces may be > something to do with having a bigger "sentence gap" than a "word gap". I > guess that a regular space bar space is an en one, so perhaps an applet > which changed an en space after a full stop into an em space could prove > the solution... > > This would overcome the wrapping problems associated with double spaces. My mother used to teach typing to national exam standards. The rule for typists was single space after commas etc, double space after a full stop. Others have come to a logical conclusion why. Proportional spacing, in theory, does away with the need for that, the end result is, again in theory, obtained by the proportional spacing. The only problem is that the proportion of space between different sentences will vary, will it not, depending on the number/length of words on individual lines where full justification is used? I like the idea of an applet but not to faff about with ens and ems. An applet which turned a double space after a full stop into two hard spaces would probably deal with the matter consistently but only most of the time. I will need to try it but what happens if the end of a sentence in a fully justified text is only 2 letter spaces from the end of a line and the first work of the next sentence is 8 letters long? It will pull the last word of the previous sentence down to the next line, which may produce too much white space in the line above. ?Solution anyone? -- John Waddell, Langbank, Renfrewshire waddell@which.net To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:56:12 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56269 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:56:10 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504560:15:08228:79; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:16:00 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0623845; 3 Feb 98 11:15 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id bj1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:14 GMT From: Brian Carroll Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:43:15 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Full stop- Double space? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.104315.37@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 18:44:05 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On 21 Jan, Roger Mayne wrote: > On Tue, 20 JAN, Brian Carroll wrote: > >OK Roger. So what is /your/ professional typographer's > >recommendation space between sentences? That sounds abrupt and rude. Sorry. But thanks for coming back with this interesting quotation: > The Printers Bible, 'Rules for Compositors and Readers' by Horace > Hart, which we still refer to today, states, and I quote: [snip] > (b) The space of the line should be used after all full points in > normal text. A special direction, 'Close, with extra space after > sentence full points', will be given for works which require an > extra space after sentence full points (e.g. some bibliographies, > dictionaries, and Classical texts). Though below you draw attention to the first sentence (so I ought to change to using single spaces forthwith), the second leaves open why certain works need double spaces. I presume that even if it is some sort of mystical convention is is really because /someone/ has decided it looks better that way. Ie, typographer's artistic judgement has been applied. If this is so, the matter still seems to be unresolved. > (c) Letter-spacing within words is not allowed for overcoming > justification problems (except very occasionally, e.g. in extremely > narrow measures). > (d) Where an em rule or a hyphen occurs in a line of letter-spaced > capitals, small capitals, or figures, there should be a > corresponding space each side of the rule or hyphen. How does one insert an em-space in OPro? > ......................... The misused use of letter-spacing > within justified text is one that irritates me the most and if I > was the programmer of OvationPro I would not have incorporated it > or at least not have allowed it on justified text. It is never used > here for any reason except display lines. As an amateur, could you explain this a bit more please? I think it's the printer's terminology I do not understand fully - eg, 'letter-spacing', 'justified'. Be patient, I really would like to be able to follow you. Brian. -- ________________________________________________________________________ Brian Carroll, Ripon, North Yorkshire bric@argonet.co.uk Using Pluto v1.03m, 19-01-98 ________________________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 3 13:56:20 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56271 for opro ; Tue, 03 Feb 98 13:56:18 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886504572:15:08277:82; Tue, 03 Feb 98 11:16:12 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0623845; 3 Feb 98 11:15 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ci1025445; 3 Feb 98 11:15 GMT From: "waddell@which.net" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 10:39:13 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Using !Organiser To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980203.103913.23@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Jan 1998 10:29:02 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Wed 21 Jan, Howe , Chris wrote: > Ovation people- > > I'm preparing to write to Archice magazine about using !Organiser with > !Ovation to manage and organise private correspondence. > > Here is what I have so far. I'd appreciate any comments/ideas, privately > if not of general interst to the List... > > Thanks > Chris Howe, Bath > > --- > > As a user of Acorns for some time, I have been trying to find an optimum > way of managing private correspondence. On the Beeb I used the excellent > Corplan, which comprehensively managed addresses, templates, salutations > and records of letters sent. It was based on Wordwise plus macros, and > limited mostly by the reliability and speed of the old 100k discs I had. about what used to happen > Using the !Stationery applet facility in Ovation Pro, I have installed a > new template for my letters. This is optimised for Window envelopes. A > text frame lives +under' the window in the envelope. I select my Address > from !Organiser and get it to type the address for me into the window. > (It can output to the +keyboard buffer' using +paste at cursor'). It's a > tad slow but entirely intuitive and nice to use. Now since the window is > a bit small, I have arranged an overflow frame linked from the target > frame. This is because normally if the text overfills its frame one > cannot type in anymore; input is lost. The user gobbles up any overflow > in the second frame manually by perhaps combining lines, then auto > inserts the date (a non-changing date is needed because we must record > when the letter was sent) using keyboard short-cuts. One must ensure the > Salutations match (Corplan used to match +Dear Sir' with +Yours > Faithfully' automatically). A parallel zip drive enables me to keep lots > of backups. The down side of having the overflow frame is that it takes > extra storage, significant if there are a lot of letters to store. > > So now I have a RISC-based system nearly as nice as the 8-bit. On the > wish list would be the ability of !Organiser to do a keyword out of > context search for addresses (this can be done indirectly by exporting > the data into a temporary file and doing a find) and maybe not have > Ovation lose overflow characters (the user would only have to ensure > there was no Overflow indication from the bottom of the frame then). > Since Ovation has a comprehensive programming language of its own, more > complex systems can be envisaged. As a comparison, I have heard that an > entire correspondence system (composition, sending & filing) for a > Solicitors office may be implemented in the MS Word macro facility. I use a simpler method which seems to work quickly. I regularly write either to indivuals or mail merge correspondence to 50 odd organisations. For individuals I have a memo pro forma and a letter pro forma. I have several letter pro formas for the mail merges to suit the purpose of the exercise. For letters or other pro formas where I do not want text to move, I use an aditional frame for the address - this frame sized so that I know it will take all necessary lines of text in the largest address. I have CSV files in !Edit for my mail merges. I have relevant labels documents which I use to print out self adhesive labels. My secretary simply sticks these on the 50 odd envelopes making her life easier. For single items of correspondence, I have a small number of directories, named thematically and each directory contains !Edit text files, one for each address. These directories sit permanently on my pinboard. Some of the textfiles, which I might use several times a day, themselves sit on the pinboard. Some of the pro formas also sit on the pinboard. To send a letter to Bloggs, the shipping agent, I double click on the pinboard 'myhead'(ed notepaper)icon and up comes the letter. I double click on the 'agents' directory on the pinboard and up comes the open directory. I drag and drop the address into the letter and begin to type the letter. If like me you send out regular mail merge correspondence and do not want to write your signature 50 odd times, you might find my solution useful. I had my signature scanned into a file and this now sits in an otherwise empty OvnPro document. For a mail merge letter, i pull the scan into the document so that when it prints out, each letter contains my signature - I use a laser printer so this looks very professional. The scan is also very useful when sending letters by ArcFax. -- John Waddell, Langbank, Renfrewshire waddell@which.net To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:09 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56383 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:06 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583557:15:09272:81; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:12:37 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id af0627515; 4 Feb 98 9:12 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ad2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:10 GMT From: Colin Thompson Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:05:52 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Test spacing To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090552.91@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:33:41 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On 03 Feb, Bernard G. Hill wrote: > Hi > My contribution to the subject of the size of spaces after full stops is > to draw attention to a small book by Eric Gill, who designed the > typeface carrying his name, entitled 'An Essay on Typography'. I don't think we should be listening too much to a man who had sex with his sister and his dog! Eric Gill that is not Mr Hill!! :-) -- Colin Thompson Mail to - colinet@atlantis.aust.com Web site - http://www.atlantis.aust.com/~colinet To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:16 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56385 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:15 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583624:05:03209:80; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:13:44 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0628200; 4 Feb 98 9:13 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ai2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:11 GMT From: Nigel Parker Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:02:38 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Double spaces To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090238.37@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 13:17:23 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Nic Cox wrote: [double space stuff] : An ellipsis has a width of more than three periods. Hands up all those people : who : type three periods (as I have in this mail) instead of occupying the "proper" : amount : of space on the line! How I miss those days melting lead! I use the Ellipsis module from, ISTR, Justin Fletcher. Whenever you type three dots in a row it will type three backspaces followed by the ellipsis cahracter! I have it installed in my boot sequence - it's great. Nigel -- 0411 384803 nigel.parker@iee.org Girton College, Cambridge, England, CB3 0JG. To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:21 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56387 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:20 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583637:05:03209:190; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:13:57 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0628230; 4 Feb 98 9:13 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ab2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:12 GMT From: Rupert Thompson Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:03:21 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Various To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090321.17@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 12:58:26 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Tue 03 Feb, Ariancylch wrote: > As David said, something like enhanced justification that did it for you > would be most useful. Might be an interesting exercise to see if an > applet that would time how long between each '-' you entered was, and if > they were close enough together it could insert a wider '-'... !Expand already does this. A pair of hyphens become an en-rule; an en-rule followed by a hyphen becomes an em-rule, and an em-rule followed by a hyphen becomes a bullet point. And then a bullet point followed by a hyphen becomes a mid-line point. Other things like \x become a multiplication sign. All in real-time as-you-type. And freely downloadable from my website. -- Rupert Thompson Queens' College, Cambridge, CB3 9ET, UK http://rjet1.quns.cam.ac.uk/ (when my computer's on!) To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:25 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56389 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:24 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583694:15:10215:79; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:14:54 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0628726; 4 Feb 98 9:14 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ak2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:13 GMT From: Keith Hopper Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:04:25 +0000 Organization: Subject: Editing Master Pages To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090425.63@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:15:20 +1200 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On 03 Feb, Chris Chorley wrote: > I tried editing the master pages for an OPro document which was originally > created under 2.46, and worked perfectly up to now in 2.48. All I did was > try to add a footer by changing the value from 0 to 10. Click ok and the > whole machine locks with no message. The document is only four A4 pages, > with the default master page. I'll get round it by creating a new document, > but I'm glad I saved it *before* trying to add a footer. > RPC/SA 20Mb RAM OPro 2.48 Ah! I've had this one intermittently right from version 2.42 -- but thought it was something to do with my lack of knowledge about how to use the application. kh To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:30 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56391 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:27 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583708:05:03831:79; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:15:08 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ac0629231; 4 Feb 98 9:15 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id aq2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:14 GMT From: Martin Devon Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:04:47 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Full stop- Double space? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090447.41@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 18:21:28 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c > > [snip] > > > (b) The space of the line should be used after all full points in > > normal text. A special direction, 'Close, with extra space after > > sentence full points', will be given for works which require an > > extra space after sentence full points (e.g. some bibliographies, > > dictionaries, and Classical texts). > > Though below you draw attention to the first sentence (so I ought to > change to using single spaces forthwith), the second leaves open why > certain works need double spaces. I can perhaps add a candle-power of 'lux' or 'phos' (phws? phows? How does one render o-mega into English?) to the reference to classical texts. Latin and Greek texts as originally written are all upper case. Lower case only came in during 4th century AD but then did not use capitals at all. Full stops are not found in original upper case texts. So it is a matter of attempting to use spaces to inject some semblance of legibility into what what may otherwise appear a great slab of solid lettering! Add to that, Roman confusion between U and V, or Attic confusion between S and T, and as to whether H exists at all...but I think this is getting us right off subject, so I'll just put a Latin full stop to this -- Martin Devon IT Consultant Stonar School To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:34 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56393 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:33 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583760:12:12879:79; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:16:00 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ac0629214; 4 Feb 98 9:15 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id aj2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:12 GMT From: Dr A G Gray Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:04:04 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Various To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090404.06@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 13:57:52 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Tue 3 Feb 98 (10:45:19 +0000), julian@southern.co.nz wrote: .... about different length dashes: >Might be an interesting exercise to see if an applet that would time how long >between each '-' you entered was, and if they were close enough together it >could insert a wider '-'... I use Sam Kington's !Quotes and its 'Diphthong' facility to do this. One hyphen is a hyphen, two makes an en-dash, and three and em-dash. And two full-stops make an ellipsis. You can do (almost) the same sort of thing with OP's 'expand abbreviations'. -- Alan.Gray@argonet.co.uk Dr A.G.Gray. Great Warley, Essex. UK http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/alan.gray N 51 33'58" E 00 17'35" G3XQU (DXCC=323/328) Acorn RiscPC S/A 202MHz To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:38 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56395 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:37 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583800:15:10814:79; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:16:40 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0628200; 4 Feb 98 9:16 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ar2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:14 GMT From: Rob Hemmings Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:05:10 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Picture runaround curves To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090510.09@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 98 (19:49:39 +0100) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Tue 3 Feb 98 (10:41:38 +0000), alan.adams@gecm.com wrote: >A recent writer to the newsgroup has found a problem I reported some >months ago. David's reply to both of us was the same - allow more error >when calculating the curves. I had done that before reporting the >problem, although I didn't take the value more than about ten times its >original setting. Maybe x100, x1000 would help? > >However, after that discussion, I realised that for my needs there was >a much better solution - simply draw an irregular frame round the draw >file. I realise that will not work for many drawings, but it did for >mine. Sometimes the simple solutions work better than the complex ones. I have exactly the same problems that Alan Adams has explained with runaround curves - they really do seem very difficult to use easily and effectively no matter what the error setting is. However, thanks Alan for the excellent idea above - I'd stupidly forgotten all about OvationPro's abilty to draw frames of any shape and use them to repel text! -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Rob Hemmings Southport Tel: +44 (0)1704 573210 robh@argonet.co.uk To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:43 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56397 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:42 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583801:05:04467:93; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:16:41 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id af0629697; 4 Feb 98 9:16 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id as2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:15 GMT From: Martin Devon Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:05:31 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Double space or not? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090531.51@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 17:50:20 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Tue 03 Feb, Alan Adams +44 1327 356463 wrote: > After reading the discussion on whether to put two spaces after a full stop, > it seems that it would be useful to look at the reasons behind it. > > One writer reported a recommendation to put two spaces in a fixed font, but > not in a proportional font. (Have I got that the right way round?) That was me, quoting the University of Cambridge Local Examinations Syndicate verbatim. > > It occurs to me that the big difference here is the width of the space > character. In a proportional font, it's small, so using two would actually > look more like using a single space in a fixed font. So the advice I think I > remembered correctly above, would seem to be exactly wrong. Not so, I think. In a fixed-pitch font the dot is in the middle of the character space, so needs space after it (as one did with an old-style typewriter). In a proportional font the dot is right over on the left with the space accumulated on the right. The dot is therefore close to the text it terminates and separated by space from the following. No addition is required. Examine the setting head from an IBM typesetting machine! Now, shall we consider the *vertical* spacing between paragraphs? ;) -- Martin Devon IT Consultant Stonar School To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:49 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56399 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:48 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583914:15:11484:79; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:18:34 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0600316; 4 Feb 98 9:18 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id aa2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:15 GMT From: Mr R Coleman Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:06:36 +0000 Organization: Subject: Printing To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090636.46@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 00:05:49 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c I have recently written a printer status program which sits on the icon bar and changes it's icon to reflect the state of the printer on the parallel port, it also checks the state of the printer when you print from another application or drag a file to the !Printer icon. It does this by watching for a couple of printer messages. The filename is !PrnStat and it is available for downloading from my web site http://www.argonet.co.uk/homepages/coleman I would be grateful for any *constructive* comments. Thanks Richard Coleman -- --. --. --. --. : : --- --- .---------------------------------------------. |_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | |Internet provider for all Acorn RISC machines| | | |\ | | | | |\| | | '---------------------------------------------' | | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | coleman@argonet.co.uk (Home) R.I.Coleman@brs0602.wins.icl.co.uk (Work) http://www.argonet.co.uk/homepages/coleman To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:21:53 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56401 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:52 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583948:05:05384:86; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:19:08 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0600262; 4 Feb 98 9:18 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id av2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:16 GMT From: Rupert Thompson Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:02:59 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Full stop- Double space? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090259.99@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Feb 1998 11:30:31 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Tue 03 Feb, Brian Carroll wrote: > On 21 Jan, Roger Mayne wrote: > > > (b) The space of the line should be used after all full points in > > normal text. A special direction, 'Close, with extra space after > > sentence full points', will be given for works which require an > > extra space after sentence full points (e.g. some bibliographies, > > dictionaries, and Classical texts). > > Though below you draw attention to the first sentence (so I ought to > change to using single spaces forthwith), the second leaves open why > certain works need double spaces. I presume that even if it is some > sort of mystical convention is is really because /someone/ has > decided it looks better that way. Ie, typographer's artistic > judgement has been applied. If this is so, the matter still seems to > be unresolved. In the case of Classical texts, I posit that it's because neither Latin nor Greek starts a sentence with a capital letter. The extra wide space would serve to delimit sentences, when otherwise there would be minimal visual clue. Looking at an Oxford Classical Text of Cicero, it does appear to be the case that the setter has used double spaces at sentence ends, which is something I'd never noticed before. The really annoying thing is, though that !THe doesn't insert a second space after a full stop unless the next character is a capital letter ;-( -- Rupert Thompson Queens' College, Cambridge, CB3 9ET, UK http://rjet1.quns.cam.ac.uk/ (when my computer's on!) To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:22:00 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56403 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:21:59 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886583949:12:14297:80; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:19:09 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0600720; 4 Feb 98 9:18 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ay2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:17 GMT From: "Roger Darlington" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:03:43 +0000 Organization: University of Salford Subject: book making To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090343.15@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Tue, 3 Feb 1998 14:07:56 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Dear All, I am trying to write a book using OP. It is an A4 landscape-format book with each page split into two equal sections down the middle. At the top of each section is a drawing, at the bottom explanatory text. Like thus: ------------------------------------ l piccy l piccy l l l l l l l l text l text l l____________l___________l <--fold here l piccy l piccy l l l l l l l l text l text l l l l l------------------l---------------- l Although not well represented by the above drawing, the pages have a strict layout, with the piccies always the same size and always at the top, and the corresponding text at the bottom. I have tried drawing a master page like the above with text and piccy frames in, and then filling up all the pages with piccies and text in the document. I have text-flow between all text sections. To get the text of the next picture below the correct text, I have used '+ next-page' characters where appropriate. This works fine. But the problem comes when I find I need to add another section (which could be anywhere in the document). It is easy to get the text to go to the next section by adding another '+ next page' character in the appropriate place, but the pictures remain stubbornly in the same section and do not move. I have tried 'embedding' the pictures (in the master frames) but this does not have the desired effect. It is perhaps the design of the master pages? Does anyone know how I should design the master pages so that I can insert sections at will, with both text and pictures keeping together. Where is the 'page editing/moving' bit of OPro? (or, in my case, the half-page editing/moving bit of Opro) Has anyone got a solution? Perplexed. Roger Roger Darlington 1 fells Grove Worsley Manchester M28 7JN Home Tel - (0161) 799 9845 R.W.DARLINGTON@acoustics.salford.ac.uk Work Tel - (0161) 295 3399 It's all done by mirrors To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:22:04 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56405 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:22:03 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886584003:05:05712:79; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:20:03 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0600740; 4 Feb 98 9:19 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id aw2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:16 GMT From: Keith Hopper Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:06:58 +0000 Organization: Subject: An eye for beauty To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090658.05@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:33:41 +1200 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Greetings, As a learner at the seat of the mighty, may I offer a few thoughts on the beauty of the printed word. When computers were only being used by experts, there came the time when I decided that some sort of computer help with type-setting should be done. At the time I was on the staff at Leeds University and spent the entire summer vacation one year in the hands of the University Printer -- a man of infinite patience and wisdom -- learning at least the rudiments of the art. His maxim was that spacing between puctuated segments of text should be handled as one would handle laying out individual characters on a poster -- by inserting sufficient space/kerning to make the result LOOK even (NOT be even by measurement!!!). This means, for example that a section ending in an italic font and punctuation mark followed by a section in a Roman or Script font needed extra/less kerning than when the font did not change. I was further instructed that where some form of parenthetic segment was involved then the 'parenthesis markers' should be in the font and size of the last character of the contents (except in VERY special circumstances). May I therefore suggest that any DTP program can only provide facilities for the user to create the visual image which is in his minds eye. It is all a matter of beauty being in the eye of the beholder. That is why typography is an art, not a science! kh PS Why shouldn't we find ourselves tweaking kerning here and there to produce the effect that we want? I do it all the time. To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 4 14:22:12 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56407 for opro ; Wed, 04 Feb 98 14:22:09 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886584053:12:14949:81; Wed, 04 Feb 98 09:20:53 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0600919; 4 Feb 98 9:20 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ba2009875; 4 Feb 98 9:17 GMT From: David Pilling Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 09:06:13 +0000 Organization: Subject: Various To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980204.090613.65@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Tue, 03 Feb 98 18:41:51 GMT X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c From: "Bernard G. Hill" >I hope that I haven=91t offended anyone, but I sent a contribution to the >discussion group on the 23 Jan, and since then I have not received any >mailings. Is the group still functioning? Have you had some problems? I would >still like to receive mailings. I think Ian has been off site on network installing duties, hence the break. From: Chris Chorley >I tried editing the master pages for an OPro document which was originally >created under 2.46, and worked perfectly up to now in 2.48. All I did was >try to add a footer by changing the value from 0 to 10. Click ok and the >whole machine locks with no message. The document is only four A4 pages, >with the default master page. I'll get round it by creating a new document, >but I'm glad I saved it *before* trying to add a footer. Strange how these things go. I believe I fixed that bug last week. A workaround is to save the document as DDL and then reload. You should then be able to set the footer size. From: Alf Chamings >I find I cannot save a document created from a click on the icon bar icon >without a type 5 crash (version 2.48(. I suppose the answer lies somewhere >in my failure to follow instructions to the letter: I upgraded my working >copy and not a newly installed copy of 2.46. Anybody else found this >problem? I'm sure this is due to you installing the original version of the Version applet. As I commented a couple of weeks back a fixed version appeared on the web site the next day. Sorry for the trouble. From: Alan Adams +44 1327 356463 >I like the option to view spelling errors. I also remember a discussion, but >not the solution, about files coming up with every word underlined. When this >happens, I simply turn off the option, and turn it back on. Yes thats a workaround, but the bug is fixed in 2.48. >In a document where I am viewing spelling errors, if I select a piece of text, >and drag and drop it elsewhere, the target paragraph (at least Ithink that is >the scope of it) is underlined red. I'd be interested to hear if that goes away when you use 2.48, probably it will. From: Brian Carroll >As an amateur, could you explain this a bit more please? I think >it's the printer's terminology I do not understand fully - eg, >'letter-spacing', 'justified'. Be patient, I really would like to be >able to follow you. In OPro the general area is 'enhanced justification' in the format windows. See pages 66-68 in the manual. Interestingly 'en space' is in the index but not in the manual text so I can't tell you how to produce one 8-) News ==== An applet by Chris Ford which provides relational database functionality on CSV files and a way of handling citations in academic type papers is available from; http://sp50.sp.phy.cam.ac.uk/ Note you will need OPro 2.48 to use this. ********************************************************************** **** My last posting - 2 weeks back - seems to not have appeared. **** **** It is repeated below. **** ********************************************************************** From: Nick Kaijaks >The 'Reverse' option in the text options and info bar button seems >to have stopped working for me in 2.48. Anyone else? any solution? Works OK for me... From: David Williams >I have upgraded to 2.48 and find that various options on the Misc > Insert >Menu do not work correctly. This rings a bell. There's an applet which produces lists of fonts, and the original version installs itself on the insert menu in such a way that it upsets it. The fixed version is on the Beebug web pages. From: Jeff Clewley >Being in the process of converting from Impression Publisher >to Ovation Pro, the one thing I find difficult is that when using >the check as you type option in spellcheck that there does not >appear to a keyboard only route to correcting a misspelt word, Well obviously when check as you type goes beep, you can hit a key and get the spell checker window open with a list of alternatives. Beyond that you're into an old complaint - you can't choose one of the alternatives without using the mouse. What you can do is manually fix the word in the icon in the spell check window and hit return. I do agree that this might be better if it worked the other way, but making the change means scrapping the current system completely. Which as ever we're loath to do because of existing documentation and so on. From: Carl Cepurneek >>remove double spaces after full stops or put them in, if we could decide. >Have it an option of course! BTW how would it deal with $24.95, ..., and >.subdir.file? Well that's easy, a full stop has at least one space after it. So we'd have an option with two buttons marked 'correct' and 'wrong' for the number of spaces after a full stop. Hmm. All this may seem trivial, but I think documents look better if you're consistent, which ever rule you choose to use. And imposing consistency is something the program could do easily. >>{string s="thesaurus$running"; >> if(!getenvs(s)) {osclis("wimptask run>.!Run");pause(5)}}{'C_T} >That didn't work for me even after mutiple typing checks; Neded ';' got '}' Sorry, needs a semicolon after the pause(5) From: "Dr. P.N. Young" >May I have an idiot's question? I don't have !ColSupp loaded, as I don't need >it (I think). I don't seem to have drawfile problems, though I don't use them a >lot. Do I need !ColSupp if I don't do other than bog standard four-ink-cartidge >Stylus Color prints???? Maybe I have a problem I don't know about :-) The Colour supplement also supports image processing, which is probably why people have seen the problems they have. But yes if you don't want to be able to twiddle images, and you don't want to do colour separations, and you don't want to drive Turbo drivers in CMYK mode, then yes you don't need it. From: Roger Mayne >text set. The misused use of letter-spacing within justified text is one that >irritates me the most and if I was the programmer of OvationPro I would not >have incorporated it or at least not have allowed it on justified text. Hmm. 8-( you should see how the books on Quark drool over this feature. From: "Howe , Chris" >Pro, I actually lost more functionality; that merger (in its initial >incarnation) could not seem to skip records and just print one item. I hope the functionality in 2.48 is as least as good as Impression was. >text frame lives +under' the window in the envelope. I select my Address > from !Organiser and get it to type the address for me into the window. >(It can output to the +keyboard buffer' using +paste at cursor'). I wonder if it will let you save chunks of text, or use the global clip board, or like err um ArcFax allows drag and drops of names and addresses? I suppose another possibility, would be to have an OPro document with all your names and addresses in. When you want to send a letter, find the address, mark it off, then click on 'label' (lablel applet), and assuming you have a label set up which resembles a letter, there you are. General ramblings ----------------- I see Archive recently referred to 2.48 as 'useable but incomplete'. I guess I asked for that by putting the word 'experimental' on the upgrade pages. Anyway 2.48 was my best effort at fixing problems in 2.46, it is a relatively conservative effort. So far I am aware of no *new* bugs in 2.48. There won't be any more 'versions' of 2.48, or a final release of it. What will come next is 2.49 with fixes for one or two more bugs that have come to light, and some new features like the global clipboard. >From the web logs, it seems about 33% of OPro users may have upgraded. David Pilling -- email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/pilling web: http://www.pilling.demon.co.uk post: David Pilling, P.O. Box 22, Thornton Cleveleys, Blackpool. FY5 1LR. UK. To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:48:20 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56598 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:48:18 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759213:15:04288:80; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:00:13 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0602847; 6 Feb 98 9:59 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ae2010437; 6 Feb 98 9:57 GMT From: Brian Adam Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:53:54 +0000 Organization: Subject: DDL - how useful is it? To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095354.82@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 21:23:07 +1300 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c The save box offers DDL format. How useful is this? What other applications can read it? Brian --=20 B r i a n =A0 A d a m J e w e l l e r y E y e w e a r =A0=20 brian@adam.co.nz ph/fx +64 9 817 6816 NEW ZEALAND http://www.adam.co.nz/workshop/ NEXT - Queenstown Mar11 to Mar18 1998=20 To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:48:34 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56600 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:48:25 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759258:12:26267:80; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:00:58 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0603598; 6 Feb 98 10:00 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id al2010437; 6 Feb 98 9:58 GMT From: Ray Dawson Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:50:51 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Various To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095051.98@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 12:29:34 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On 04 Feb, Dr A G Gray wrote: > And two full-stops make an ellipsis. What happenes when you write a sentence ending in an abbreviation etc.. Perhaps three full stops should make an elipsis? Ray D -- ===================================. | M a g R a y Document Services | Ray Dawson Tel: 0181 864 7208 | the print and braille specialists | rayd@argonet.co.uk '===================================' http://www.argonet.co.uk/users/rayd To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:48:39 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56602 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:48:38 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759269:15:04881:80; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:01:09 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0603694; 6 Feb 98 10:00 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id am2010437; 6 Feb 98 9:59 GMT From: Nico ter Haar Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:51:13 +0000 Organization: Subject: upgrades 245->248 To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095113.68@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 13:43:01 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Hello, Maybe Ian wants to repeat details about how to get the upgrade from 245->248 (or 246 using the webupgrades to get 248). This is address, pricing, payment method, original disk return? etc. thanks nico -- Nico ter Haar, StrongARM 202MHz at home! nico.terhaar@tip.nl ----> FoonGrep2 now supports the December 1997 CDfoon ! Pulstar Pages WWW site -- http://www.tip.nl/users/nico.terhaar/ To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:48:43 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56604 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:48:42 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759281:12:26384:80; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:01:21 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0604054; 6 Feb 98 10:01 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id an2010437; 6 Feb 98 9:59 GMT From: Rupert Thompson Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:51:35 +0000 Organization: Subject: OEFPro version 1.20 To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095135.69@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 00:23:17 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c I've just posted version 1.20 of the !OEFPro applet to my website (address in sig). This should be a bit faster than the previous version -- thanks to David Pilling for suggesting the improvement. !OEFPro works in conjunction with Easy Font Professional to try to avoid the 'Missing font' error on loading a document which contains deactivated fonts. It tries to activate such fonts invisibly. -- Rupert Thompson Queens' College, Cambridge, CB3 9ET, UK http://rjet1.quns.cam.ac.uk/ (when my computer's on!) To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:48:49 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56606 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:48:46 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759324:12:26689:80; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:02:04 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0604051; 6 Feb 98 10:01 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ak2010437; 6 Feb 98 9:58 GMT From: Alan Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:49:19 +0000 Organization: Subject: A Plea To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.094919.10@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 14:19:38 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Hello OVPro users, I agree with Keith Hopper "An Eye of Beauty." Can this please draw an end to the endless chat about full points and spacing. Lets get back to some views, comments, etc. about the best DTP package around. As for slagging off Eric Gill one of the world's greatest Typographers thats the absolute pits. Alan Esplen Great Waltham, Essex, England. Graphic Designer email: a.esplen@btinternet.com To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:48:53 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56608 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:48:51 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759369:15:05496:83; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:02:49 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ah0604034; 6 Feb 98 10:02 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ao2010437; 6 Feb 98 9:59 GMT From: Rob Hemmings Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:53:31 +0000 Organization: Subject: Underlining of spelling mistakes To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095331.57@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 98 (20:51:14 +0100) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c I definitely like this feature but is there any chance the underlines could be made a little thinner? I feel they look a bit ugly at the current width. -- ------------------------------------------------------------- Rob Hemmings Southport Tel: +44 (0)1704 573210 robh@argonet.co.uk To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:48:57 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56610 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:48:56 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759407:05:16258:85; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:03:27 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0603694; 6 Feb 98 10:03 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id au2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:01 GMT From: tony van der Hoff Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:51:58 +0000 Organization: Subject: 2.45 upgrade To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095158.60@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 16:42:02 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Having finally got round to installing 2.46 in preparation for the upgrade to 2.48, I came across the following problem: The 2.45 -> 2.46 upgrde pack consists only of disks 1 & 2, in exchange for the 2.45 copies. In the 2.46 !ReadMe it states that !System has moved from disk 2 to disk 3. The !Install process gets its knickers in a right twist when it can't find !System on disc 3, and aborts. 2.46 seems to work OK with 2.45's modules, but am I courting problems by running it this way? Furthermore, I now no longer have a complete installation package, so can't completely reload OPro should that disaster occur! I'm definately courting trouble that way! Any advice anyone? Can/will you send me disk 3, Ian?? -- Tony van der Hoff | E-Mail: tony@mk-net.demon.co.uk Buckinghamshire, England | ---------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:49:03 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56612 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:49:02 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759417:12:27283:80; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:03:37 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0604765; 6 Feb 98 10:03 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id at2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:01 GMT From: "andy.ling@quantel.com" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:48:56 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: book making To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.094856.80@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 11:24:52 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c > I am trying to write a book using OP. > > It is an A4 landscape-format book with each page split into two > equal sections down the middle. At the top of each section is a > drawing, at the bottom explanatory text. [snip.. lots of stuff] A quick tought occurs. Couldn't you make your master page the size of half A4 (which after all is the size of your page). Then insering a new page would push all the rest down (including the pictures). Then you could use the Imposition applet to print two pages on a single A4 sheet. Hope this helps Andy Ling To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:49:08 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56614 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:49:07 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759502:05:16914:82; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:05:02 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0603598; 6 Feb 98 10:04 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id av2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:02 GMT From: "andy.ling@quantel.com" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:52:22 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Various To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095222.56@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 4 Feb 1998 17:21:37 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c >> Is the group still functioning? Have you had some problems? I would >>still like to receive mailings. >I think Ian has been off site on network installing duties, hence the break. Does this mean the list is run manually? All the mailing lists I've dealt with (admitedly in the UNIX world) were automatic and didn't really need any looking after. Or maybe it just needs Ian to look after it when it breaks, which is perhaps too often. If it is a manual process I guess we owe Ian more than I thought :-) Anyway it's good to see it's back again. Andy Ling To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:49:15 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56616 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:49:11 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759507:15:06352:81; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:05:07 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0605473; 6 Feb 98 10:04 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id aw2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:02 GMT From: Dave Allen Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:52:46 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Double spaces To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095246.07@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 19:47:16 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Wed 04 Feb, Nigel Parker wrote: > On Tue, 3 Feb 1998, Nic Cox wrote: > > [double space stuff] > : An ellipsis has a width of more than three periods. Hands up all those people > : who > : type three periods (as I have in this mail) instead of occupying the "proper" > : amount > : of space on the line! How I miss those days melting lead! > > I use the Ellipsis module from, ISTR, Justin Fletcher. Whenever you type > three dots in a row it will type three backspaces followed by the ellipsis > cahracter! I have it installed in my boot sequence - it's great. > Now come on you fellers! What is an ellipsis and what do you use it for? -- | _ \ __ ___ _____ / _ \| | |___ _ _ | |_) / _` \ V / -_) | _ | | / -_) ' \ |____/\__,_|\_/\___| |_| |_|_|_\___|_||_| dave@allendr.demon.co.uk To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:49:20 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56618 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:49:19 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759541:12:28131:81; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:05:41 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ae0604054; 6 Feb 98 10:05 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id bc2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:03 GMT From: Alf Chamings Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:49:42 +0000 Organization: Subject: Enhanced justification To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.094942.44@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Feb 1998 15:52:57 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c On Wed 04 Feb, David Pilling wrote: > > > From: Roger Mayne > >> text set. The misused use of letter-spacing within justified text is one >> that irritates me the most and if I was the programmer of OvationPro I >> would not have incorporated it or at least not have allowed it on >> justified text. > > Hmm. 8-( you should see how the books on Quark drool over this feature. > I think Roger is right about this. I had just ticked the enhanced justification button on the basis that an enhancement is likely to be a good thing. I didn't pay a lot of attention to what it produced until I saw Roger's comment. Then I noticed that in some circumstances (perhaps extreme ones) it makes words look decidedly peculiar even in a memo using 12pt text across an A4 sheet in a single column. In fact I think I will try switching justification off altogether for more types of document. Regards Alf -- mailto:AlfChamings@ed.ac.uk Health and Safety for the Royal Infirmary of Edinburgh tel +44 131 536 3251 fax +44 131 536 3283 http://www.med.ed.ac.uk/hew/ for occupational and environmental health To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:49:25 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56620 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:49:23 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759564:05:17395:80; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:06:04 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ah0606635; 6 Feb 98 10:05 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id bh2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:04 GMT From: "Peter Daniel" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:50:06 +0000 Organization: University of Salford Subject: Re: Test spacing To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095006.78@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:13:29 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c > Hi > > My contribution to the subject of the size of spaces after full stops is to > draw attention to a small book by Eric Gill, who designed the typeface carrying > his name, entitled 'An Essay on Typography'. > > He is very interested in the fact that unless text is deliberately manipulated > for a specific purpose, its main function is to be read as easily as possible. > He maintained that to this end, spaces should be as small as possible, since we > separate words in our minds as we read. While he was in charge of the Nonesuch > Press, he insisted that thin spaces should be used. A thin space is 20% of an > em, an em being a space equal to the point size of the type in use. There will, > of course, be times when larger spaces at the end of sentences are beneficial > in slowing down the pace of reading. > > He hated justified type except for very long lines, because the extra space in > justified type makes reading more difficult. It is very difficult to get > justified type which does not show rivers of white space running down the page. > Justified type is used only because the page overall looks smarter, but it is > not so easy to read. I haven=91t got the references to hand but research has been > done which supports that. My work has been very much influenced by his teaching. > > Many of the effects used today have resulted from the use of the typewriter > with its monospaced single face type. Emphasis could be gained by underlining. > There is no need to underline when a bold or italic face can be used. > Underlining, tends to compete with the text rather than enhancing it. > I agree with the last point - underlining should be banned. > Best wishes > Berni > =20 > > --=20 > Bernard G. Hill Tel/Fax: 01633 880197 > Zion, Church Road > Undy, Newport e-mail bernard.hill@virgin.net > Monmouthshire NP6 3EN=20 > > > > To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk > with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l > To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l > > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Visit my web site: http://rampage.ml.org/users/~peter/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:49:31 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56622 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:49:30 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759600:05:17741:85; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:06:40 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0604051; 6 Feb 98 10:06 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id be2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:04 GMT From: "Bernard G. Hill" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:48:33 +0000 Organization: Subject: Typography To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.094833.46@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Thu, 05 Feb 1998 22:07:19 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Hello again, I am sorry that I was totally ignorant of the correlation between sexual deviance and typographic layout, when I drew attention to the work of Eric Gill. My appologies for this stupid mistake. On a serious note, I would like to suggest that fixed spaces of different values, such as those available in 'Pagemaker'=AE be implemented in OP. Not that these would be used for general work but they are useful for that special place. I know kerning can be used, but that is not always convenient.=20 Someone asked about achieving an en space. Numerals are on an en body, so if any digit is used and the type colour set to white this will do as a work around for the odd occasion. If the numeral used in this way is given a style, then changing the type colour will enable these 'hidden' characters to be found should the need arise. On thing I would like to be able to see and easily change without going through menus, is the leading which is being used at the cursor point in the text. Could this be part of the the Info Palette? When setting up display panels, as opposed to normal text, I find it very useful to be able to change the leading to get the vertical spacing just as I want it. Multiple line spacing is too course an adjustment much of the time. Best wishes to all, Berni. --=20 Bernard G. Hill Tel/Fax: 01633 880197 Zion, Church Road Undy, Newport e-mail bernard.hill@virgin.net Monmouthshire NP6 3EN=20 To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:49:37 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56624 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:49:35 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759662:15:07288:81; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:07:42 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0605676; 6 Feb 98 10:07 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ay2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:03 GMT From: "Peter Daniel" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:50:30 +0000 Organization: University of Salford Subject: Menus To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095030.18@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Thu, 5 Feb 1998 13:33:34 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Can anyone explain how I can re-arange the menu structure of OvationPro slightly. I have found the files that create the menus but so far editing them has met with little success. Although I realize this is not the view of the development team I would prefer Applets to add them selves to the logical menu rather than the applets menu. For example 'Version' and 'Access' should be on the file menu next to 'Info' Similarly the menu options for the colour, page and style pallets would go nicely on the end of the 'View' menu. Does anyone else agree or am I just being awkward. Ideally I would like an applet that allows you to edit the menus by dragging and dropping items from one menu to another and even let you create your own menu headings and items. Any takers? Peter ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Visit my web site: http://rampage.ml.org/users/~peter/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:49:42 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56626 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:49:40 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759704:15:07602:80; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:08:24 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ac0607367; 6 Feb 98 10:08 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id bi2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:05 GMT From: David Pilling Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:53:07 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: Various To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095307.94@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Wed, 04 Feb 98 18:55:00 GMT X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c From: Nigel Parker >I use the Ellipsis module from, ISTR, Justin Fletcher. Whenever you type >three dots in a row it will type three backspaces followed by the ellipsis >cahracter! I have it installed in my boot sequence - it's great. From: Rupert Thompson >!Expand already does this. A pair of hyphens become an en-rule; an >en-rule followed by a hyphen becomes an em-rule, and an em-rule followed >by a hyphen becomes a bullet point. And then a bullet point followed by >a hyphen becomes a mid-line point. Other things like \x become a >multiplication sign. All in real-time as-you-type. And >freely downloadable from my website. Botom line something akin to the ligature applet should be able to handle all these special characters. From: Rob Hemmings >I have exactly the same problems that Alan Adams has explained with runaround >curves - they really do seem very difficult to use easily and effectively no >matter what the error setting is. However, thanks Alan for the excellent idea >above - I'd stupidly forgotten all about OvationPro's abilty to draw frames of >any shape and use them to repel text! I think you should also be able to use the auto-runaround and then edit the results by hand. From: "Roger Darlington" >It is an A4 landscape-format book with each page split into two >equal sections down the middle. At the top of each section is a >drawing, at the bottom explanatory text. I can think of two approaches. One is as you hinted to use text stories and embed the pictures in them. The text of pictures and page throws must of course be put into the master frames in the document, and not into the master pages. Frames will have to be big enough to allow for the default indent. I can't see why that won't work. Plan B, is that when you want a new 'section' you use the insert page feature to create a new page with empty picture boxes. David Pilling -- email: david@pilling.demon.co.uk web: http://www.netlink.co.uk/users/pilling web: http://www.pilling.demon.co.uk post: David Pilling, P.O. Box 22, Thornton Cleveleys, Blackpool. FY5 1LR. UK. To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:49:49 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56628 for opro ; Fri, 06 Feb 98 13:49:47 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 886759727:05:18723:80; Fri, 06 Feb 98 10:08:47 GMT Received: from post-20.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.27]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0605473; 6 Feb 98 10:08 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id bk2010437; 6 Feb 98 10:05 GMT From: Ian MacDougall Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:54:18 +0000 Organization: Beebug Ltd Subject: 2.45 and the list To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980206.095418.02@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 09:46:44 +0100 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c In message you wrote: > Maybe Ian wants to repeat details about how to get the upgrade from > 245->248 (or 246 using the webupgrades to get 248). This is address, > pricing, payment method, original disk return? etc. Return of original disc 1 and 2 with a hard backed SAE for return. As you can see below this alarms people. In message <57w3WJAapJ20Ewtt@mk-net.demon.co.uk> you wrote: > Having finally got round to installing 2.46 in preparation for the > upgrade to 2.48, I came across the following problem: > > The 2.45 -> 2.46 upgrde pack consists only of disks 1 & 2, in exchange > for the 2.45 copies. In the 2.46 !ReadMe it states that !System has > moved from disk 2 to disk 3. The !Install process gets its knickers in > a right twist when it can't find !System on disc 3, and aborts. > > 2.46 seems to work OK with 2.45's modules, but am I courting problems by > running it this way? > > Furthermore, I now no longer have a complete installation package, so > can't completely reload OPro should that disaster occur! I'm definately > courting trouble that way! > Any advice anyone? Can/will you send me disk 3, Ian?? Well it is all a bit of a hotch potch, but 2.45 and 2.46 are very similar. Since you installed 2.45 your system will have been upgraded, it is only the picker module that is added, if memory serves. You need to you install only to install the program, it effectively copies all the rest of the discs over as they are which you can do manually. I basically didn't want to send out three discs *free* when two would do. If anyone suffers a system failure so severe that their hard disc is wiped along with all of their backups I'll gladly send them the picker module. In message <802565A1.005ECC4A.00@buffer1.HQ.quantel> you wrote: > Does this mean the list is run manually? All the mailing lists I've dealt > with (admitedly in the UNIX world) were automatic and didn't really need > any looking after. It was my intention to move the mailling list to our Linux machine and run it under majordomo or listserv. The current system could probably be more automated, but I don't want to think about it just yet and it always seems easier to stick with something that vaguely works rather than move to something new. There is quite a lot of manual intervention required, so if you could all be a bit more careful about where you send you posts and limit the content of your posts to that which is relevant I think things would be easier for me (for example I still read all the posts even though David does all the hard work because people continue to send signoff / signon requests to ovationp-l instead of maillist and we even had some 'helpful' chap trying to warn us all of a ***** VIRUS ALERT *****, do not open email entitled etc etc). -- Ian MacDougall Beebug Ltd To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 13:52:45 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56932 for opro ; Tue, 10 Feb 98 13:52:43 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 887102760:12:11832:85; Tue, 10 Feb 98 09:26:00 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0610303; 10 Feb 98 9:25 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id af1001499; 10 Feb 98 9:24 GMT From: "andy.ling@quantel.com" Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:17:35 +0000 Organization: Subject: Re: OEFPro version 1.20 To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980210.091735.65@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 1998 10:43:09 +0000 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c > !OEFPro works in conjunction with Easy Font Professional to try to > avoid the 'Missing font' error on loading a document which contains > deactivated fonts. It tries to activate such fonts invisibly. Is there a version that works with Looksystems Font Directory Pro? Andy Ling To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 13:52:50 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56934 for opro ; Tue, 10 Feb 98 13:52:49 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 887102791:15:25650:83; Tue, 10 Feb 98 09:26:31 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0610807; 10 Feb 98 9:26 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id aj1001499; 10 Feb 98 9:25 GMT From: Peter Blenkinsop Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:19:29 +0000 Organization: Subject: Selecting areas To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980210.091929.35@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Sun, 08 Feb 1998 14:30:16 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c Is it possible to get OvationPro to select an area on a page which is not whole lines. For example if a document is in two columns, tabs or space separated, can OP be made to select the right hand column only? I'd like to do this to get out lists of names when they are typed onto a page. -- This is my signature using Pluto Contained in the last character of this line is the secret of the universe. Rats!! I've run out of space for the last character. Peter Blenkinsop To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 13:52:54 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56936 for opro ; Tue, 10 Feb 98 13:52:53 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 887102796:15:25659:82; Tue, 10 Feb 98 09:26:36 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ai0610540; 10 Feb 98 9:26 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id ai1001499; 10 Feb 98 9:25 GMT From: Alan Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:17:14 +0000 Organization: Subject: 2.48 and applets To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980210.091714.00@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Fri, 06 Feb 1998 17:42:57 +0000 (GMT) X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c I have a problem with applets can anybody offer any advice please. I have down loaded v2.48 and carefully the followed instructions to upgrade my current version (2.46) The program runs but the menu does not show applets the last item being misc. I have reinstalled all the applets as per instructions. In fact I have reinstalled starting from scratch every thing 3 times but still without sucess. Help! Alan Esplen Great Waltham, Essex, England. Check out Anne & Alans Home Page http://www.btinternet.com/~a.esplen email: a.esplen@btinternet.com To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 13:52:59 1998 Received: from relay-5.mail.demon.net by pilling.demon.co.uk with SMTP id AA56938 for opro ; Tue, 10 Feb 98 13:52:58 GMT Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net by mailstore for opro@pilling.demon.co.uk id 887102896:05:27364:81; Tue, 10 Feb 98 09:28:16 GMT Received: from post-10.mail.demon.net ([194.217.242.154]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id ab0611607; 10 Feb 98 9:27 GMT Received: from risc.demon.co.uk ([158.152.18.44]) by post.mail.demon.net id aq1001499; 10 Feb 98 9:27 GMT From: Mr T J Chubb Sender: imac@risc.demon.co.uk Date: Tue, 10 Feb 1998 09:20:10 +0000 Organization: Subject: Colour Supp 1.02 To: Subscribers to the mailing-list OVATIONP-L Reply-To: ovationp-l@risc.demon.co.uk Message-ID: <19980210.092010.89@risc.demon.co.uk> Precedence: bulk X-Posting-Date: Fri, 6 Feb 98 21:34:05 X-MailList: MailList v0.16 the mailing-list robot for RiscOS X-Apparently-From: X-Posting-Agent: RISC OS Newsbase 0.59c I have tried to upgrade Colour Supplement to version 1.02 and have followed the instrucitons which accompanied the upgrade. Unfortunately, when I try to reload OPro, I get an error message about trap handlers and stacks and OPro will not load. I have had to revert to version 1.00. Any ideas? Many thanks, Tom C. -- --. --. --. --. : : --- --- .---------------------------------------------. |_| |_| | _ | | | | |_ | |Internet provider for all Acorn RISC machines| | | |\ | | | | |\| | | '---------------------------------------------' | | | \ |_| |_| | | |__ | tomc@argonet.co.uk To unsubscribe send a message to: maillist@risc.demon.co.uk with the Subject: SIGNOFF ovationp-l To subscribe the Subject line should be: SIGNON ovationp-l From maillist@risc.demon.co.uk Tue Feb